Airtouch 5 Integration (Aus)

Hello again Airtouch Users!

First a big shoutout to the community for all of the work that’s gone into integrating Airtouch 5 with Home Assistant, its progressed really far over the past couple of years and I am very happy with the integration. I am currently using @TheNoctambulist integration and have had a few different interactions with @smitcoracing as well, both of you are legends for all of the quick responses and help to this group! Thanks guys

Thought I would reach out and ask everyone how the overall performance of the Airtouch is, because I had some questions about my AC system performance vs others. How well does your Airtouch 5 track each zone temperature to setpoint temperature? I have ITCs for each of my zones and the standard behavior I notice is that it doesn’t appear to ramp the unit up until I am ~1 degree above my set point. The dampers are opening to 100% before that, but the actual AC compressor/condenser units do not start putting in the work to really keep the unit down to the set point. Ill provide a basic example from a summer afternoon for a better visual.

In the below graph you can see damper percentage for this zone on the top, a temp delta in the middle (ITC temp - zone desired temp) and mains draw at the bottom.

You can see the zone open to 100% very quickly after the delta crosses the 0 degree point, I think this part is working perfectly. However, looking at the bottom graph, you’ll notice the current draw didn’t really kick up until about 1.5 degrees delta where the unit then brought the zone temp down by about .5 degrees and its steadily been increasing for the past 90 minutes with no real change in power draw from the unit. This is my largest zone in the system, but I dont think that matters in this scenario. I don’t remember the exact size of the AC unit for this zone but it regularly pulls closer to 3000 watts when you can really hear the condenser fan cranking and the unit moving some air.

So I guess my question\concern is, does this seem somewhat normal to others behavior? I would expect that unit to ramp up a little bit more and even overshoot the desired temperature a little bit, not stay regularly 1 degree above it when there should be heaps of capacity left in the unit. I am slightly worried that my Airtouch commissioning process may have not been completed correctly as my faith in the installers of the system is pretty low.

*side note, the bottom graph does include whole home power draw, so the ripples and noise are likely not part of the AC units power draw.

Thanks all!!

Hey mate,

This is all very complex and dependent on how your system is installed and commissioned etc.

Personally for me, when my system is running every zone in the home can be set at any temperature they want to be and the zone is controlled with in .5 of a degree all day an night.

My system does have sensors in all zones with a bypass fitted of the correct size.
The energy usage is amazing and the fact it hold temperature so well is excellent.
But, this doesn’t happen for everyone because of so many factors.

One thing to remember is that the air conditioner itself has to have off times and off times. My Panasonic for example will cycle off 1 degree below setpoint and this is the same for most brands. Because I have a bypass this is not noticeable.

After the system goes off they need to have off time, usually this is with a 1.5 to 2 degree of “Differential” as it is not good for systems to stop start frequently.
Air conditioning systems while they try to achieve setpoint will also do what they can to avoid going off in some ways which is why some hang on, slow down as much as possible until the room temperature drops below the setpoint and at the point they give up and cycle off.

This is why having a system which is too large is just as bad as having a system that is too small and as I say to most customers the capacity range of a system is very important and more so the lowest setting.

My 14kw Panasonic operates between 3.3kw - 15.0kw on cooling.
This means it can slow down or every time its starts it will be at 3.3kw capacity.
This give it the ability to to maintain room temperature extremely well.
Some brands will have higher minimum values of 5kw or more which makes a zoned home system that little bit harder to control.

Another reason why a bypass is so effective is because the air being bypassed is seen by the ac system itself and determines how it moves through that capacity range. It results in the air temperature coming out of your vents being softer and not as harsh and stops the system running way harder than it should or needs to be.

The logic of your ducted system (Nothing to do with Airtouch) is looking at the setpoint you want to achieve, the return air temperature and its coil temperature to determine the speed of the outdoor unit. So, when a bypass is used the system can be sucking in hot air which heats up the indoor coil and forces the system to run hard, it has no idea its connected to ducting let alone zones etc.

When a bypass is fitted, as the bypass opens it is sending cold air back in the return of the system which slows down. Because it senses that the return air temperature is close to setpoint and the indoor coil is cold enough.
It rapidly slows down the outdoor. Because this has slowed down the air coming out of the system isn’t colder than required.

This is just a really simplified way of how things are happening and alot more goes on with all this stuff than any installer will ever explain or more than what the general public would believe happens.

If you call me we can go over all as this may need to be optimisted.

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I have a 14kW Panasonic system and am really pleased with how well the system controls temperature in the various zones. One room with a high heat load is today cycling between 0.2 and 0.6 (or occasionally 0.7) above setpoint. Other rooms are within 0.5 degrees.

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only 3 zones were turned on and i dont have any programs running that may cause the random turn off

looks like it happened again should I try a reboot i mean

Rebooting the air touch, home assistant, maybe even the heat pump might not be a bad idea. It probably won’t help, but it will at least rule things out.

Are there any timers set on the airtouch itself? You looked at the automations and sorted by execution time to double-check there’s no automation running? It might be worth seeing if anything else is happening around that time that could cause the problem.

Do you have access to the home assistant logs? Is there anything interesting in there?

By any chance are you monitoring power usage at all and if so, what kind of usage are you seeing?

The AirTouch 5 has a few other features besides programs and quick timers that can turn the AC off automatically. Maybe check whether the smart features like “Weather Adaption” or “Auto Off After” are enabled. The weather adaption feature can automatically turn off the AC when the outside temperature is lower than the set point which seems plausible to occur around 11pm. Auto Off After sets a maximum runtime for the AC. Take a look in the user manual for details on these features.

yep just checked none of these options are turned on

Yo Smitco, I am about to have a 25kw Daikin FDYQN250LBV1 installed with AT5 and 6 zones with ITC, and after following this whole thread I checked with them if a bypass would be installed as per your sage wisdom. The response was:
This functionality isn’t required for the Daikin product
It’s the only product that ramps down and does not require a bypass or spill zone its compatibility with the system is fantastic.

What’s your take on this from the airtouch side is it a daiken thing they are doing or is it a bit hmmm?

Do you live on the sun?! :wink: A quick google suggests minimum cooling power of 16kw, which is MASSIVE. Imagine having a 2.5kw air conditioner on in each room as minimum. Imagine if only one room needs cooling, most of that cooling goes into one room. Ask them to explain to you how it works given the minimum output. Your spill zone, which is mandatory, is going to feel like a meat locker.

My Daikin is about 8.5kw with a min around 4kw, and with three bedrooms and a lounge in NZ I still wish I had a bypass damper.

I’d probably go to a different installer for another opinion. I wouldn’t have Airtouch now without a bypass.

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Yeah that’s a lie, it isn’t required for any product but the system works best with it. All systems ramp down and some ramp down a lot lower than what the Daikin does anyway.

All I see is red flags with the response.

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It’s good to see so many people here are learning :grinning:

Right right, does airtouch force you to select a spill zone if a bypass isn’t installed? And I’m guessing then as kiwi tom says I’ll have to make a sacrificial fridge out of a room.

Being Canberra no doubt they specced for a heat the whole house from freezing temp scenario but omitting as you said a $400 extra damper seems suspect.

Random naive side question - if the minimum power is 16kw does that mean if the ac is running at all it’s drawing 16kw an hour? RIP my electric bill if that’s the case

Love getting home reno tips from a HA community forum :yum:

Mate I have sent you a message and I think it’s worth your time to contact me and possibly supply me a floor plan to look at.

You have to have either a constant, spill or bypass zone so if they are saying they aren’t using either then your getting a constant which is very poor.

I’m also very cautious of supplying systems too large and only supply systems to how people intend on using the home. As Tom said, you don’t want a system with a very high minimum capacity as it will cost a fortune to run. With a larger system also comes larger airflow that you need to deal with which can create other issues.

Unfortunately, in my industry exists massive amounts of mis information, people that just want to sell and push there own brands and honestly don’t really care enough to know how things work.

Also, the capacity kw of a system is not the same as the energy usage, they are completely different figures.
My 14kw system for example will run at close to 14kw when it’s working its hardest and then reduces from that down to about 1kw.

A larger system like the Daikin will still be running at 4-5kw at a bare minimum as the minimum capacity is 15kw which is massive.

I’d be having a real good look at at this.

Also, the 14kW is the rated heating and/or cooling capacity - not the amount of power consumed by the unit. The power consumed might be around 5-6kW when it is producing 14kW of heating or cooling.

I have a few more thoughts that might help, @benderrodrigo. I’m someone with an Airtouch system, not an expert, and I’m in New Zealand so it’s nowhere near as warm here as Australia. We use heating 8 months of the year.

The Airtouch tries to keep the temperature within 0.5 degrees either way of your target temperature for each room. Minimum output can be really important here. If your system can ramp down to a really low minimum output it might be able to keep a little bit of cooling running all the time, particularly on cooler days, rather than yoyoing it about. If your system has a 14kw minimum output that’s a lot of cooling, or heating, I suspect the outdoor unit is going to start and stop really often. My understanding is an outdoor unit lasts longer if it runs at a low temperature for a long time, rather than starting and stopping every 20 mins.

I also find it more comfortable if your system is putting out a constant low level cooling heating than flooding the rooms every 20 minutes with super hot or super cold air.

I find it much better to turn the ducted unit on and leave it on, or put it on a timer so it starts a few hours before I need the house cooled / warmed. Because of this maximum output power isn’t as important as minimum power - so long as it’s powerful enough to cool / heat your home. If on the hottest day of the year you’re at 24 degrees instead of 22, or on the coldest day of the year you have to wear a jumper inside, that’s not the end of the world.

In practice you need a spill zone or a bypass damper. I’ve had a few problems because of the spill zone - I do lots of direct damper control in home assistant to prevent the spill zone getting too hot or too cold - before I did that our lounge / spill zone was set to 23 but could get up to 27.

I really think you need to consider a different installer, and to get the bypass damper.