Will this space work for equipment and antennas?

Hey everyone I’m trying to figure out a good place to install my equipment. I used to have a great location right in the middle of the house but we’ve remodeled and it’s gone. So this is probably the next most realistic central location. But with the water heater and beadboard where I hang metal tools, there is a lot of metal in the room. I would have my HA Green, Google WiFi, Z Wave and sonoff zigbee antennas and a Bluetooth dongle.

It’s definitely not the only option, but it’s the path of least resistance right now. Just don’t want to do it and then realize I’ve selected a bad spot where the signals are blocked.

Just don’t stick your antennas next to the metal frames. Even cruise ships have reliable wifi network…

I’d be more concerned about the heat from the hot water cylinder.

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There are ‘heat map’ style apps on your phone you can use to plot coverage across your premises.

Try those with your antennas in various positions and orientation and see what is best.

Having too much 2.4Ghz signal (WiFi, ZigBee, BlueTooth all share similar frequencies) in close proximity is also going to cause grief and interference. Try and space them out a bit if possible. If using more recent 5Ghz and 6Ghz bands to try and get around this, make sure you are not confusing devices that can only use the 2.4Ghz band exclusively. If setting up sub-lans to separate IOT networks from everything else, make sure that some essential things like timekeeping NTP, and IPv6 for Matter are still catered for. Don’t lock it up too tight without considering the implications.

Think like the radio signals do - what is the closest path with least interference I can safely and reliably travel to get to my final destination, and back again?

Yes, most protocols have error correction and retransmission functionality, but you should strive to keep those to a minimum rather than rely on them always.

Upping your device radio transmission transmit levels can often backfire, as the surrounding receivers are now swamped. You cannot control what your neighbours do, but be responsible yourself. If you suspect any such interference, a temporary shield of aluminiuum cooking foil between them and you can be used to check if it makes much difference. If it does, put it on the back of a picture hanging on the wall can be most effective. Make sure the ground wire is well hidden in case kids find it and pull on it. Correspondingly, there is metallic wallpaper that can completely shield a whole room, turning it into a Faraday Cage. Same with foil insulation, usually found in roofs and outside walls, where signal reflections can play havoc with carefully planned antenna pointing exercises, but protect you from the neighbour across the street that has their brand new gamer router WiFi radios turned up to maximum boost with added antennas, so his Playstation can get the best ping and latency times. Smirks: there are ways to remedy this, not all legal, and a knock on the door to offer useful advice can beat a carefully focused wideband noise interference generator any time! Window and door glass tinting is often metallic and has reflective as well as shielding properties.

Channel selection should be left on automatic unless you have control over all channels that can be seen. Again, there are tools you can use to examine which channels are less used or free. Some devices are smart and constantly look for the best, while others only check at power on time.

Antenna orientation can make a difference. Move the device in 3 dimensions to see which picks up the best signal. Putting a distant device in the focal point of a parabolic reflector can sometimes work wonders to punch a line of sight signal through.

Be patient if you have mesh devices that need time to heal and discover best paths. Correspondingly, once they are stable, do not disrupt them by uncalled for resets.

While wireless is convenient, it is also a major source of grief if it is marginal and intermittent. Hard wiring, shielded from interference, is far better. Consider cat 6 or above twisted pair wiring to connect distant access points together. Ethernet, RS485, fiber optics, whatever, as long as the data gets through, reliably and consistently. In a multi-storey building, consider a floor to floor hard-wired backbone, with wireless access separated by floor, and all going back to a central switch and router. Shortest path is best, but other considerations including WAF, technology creep, and cost often override this.

If you are considering adding a facilities cabinet to bring everything together, don’t forget adequate ventilation and a reliable power source. Keep dust and heat out. Adding a small UPS to keep critical networking components working during short power interruptions should be part of your scope of works. Bonus is most UPSs contain power filters to improve longevity and reliability of connected devices. Don’t put everything inside a metal cabinet and wonder where all the signals went - see ‘Faraday Cage’. Physical access security is also essential to prevent unwanted theft, reconfiguration or interference.

Carefully bundling all your wiring together for neatness and tying it up with cable ties might look good, but unless they are twisted pair and shielded, you may be introducing cross coupling, hum, and interference. Keep data and power cabling seperate if possible, and if they cross, keep it at right angles to minimise crosstalk.

Cheapest is not always best. Design and planning will always trump reactive troubleshooting. Try to eliminate luck from the equation.

So, Wifi, zigbee-antennas and bluetooth-dongle, stuffed close together in a what looks like a small-sealed-room …ReThink

A cheap SDR radio dongle, centre tuned to the 2.4Ghz band and visually displayed to show the entire band in raw mode can be an enormous shock to a neophyte. We are not aware of most of the background chatter that clogs the airwaves and the fact that anything gets through is quite amazing.

i assume you by that “statement” are meaning You Spouse :laughing: , if you on the other hand mean “least resistance” in terms of Signals “desire” to free “Circumstances”, i would say … Don’t buy anymore IOT, find another Hobby

You mean obsession?

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Obsessed , Me ? …Nooo, im a hoarder :joy:

I had a pinhole leak in copper pipe of water heater

Sprayed water onto wall above water heater

If you place equipment in same room with exposed water pipes be prepared for water spray

Plenty of space there I believe

Thank you! The hot water heater itself is well insulated, so does not emit much heat, but it’s definitely something I need to think about. I can monitor the temperature for a while as I get ready for the permanent installation. The area itself can be ventilated easily should it need it.

This is very helpful; thank you. My house is one floor, 1300 square feet with an encapsulated crawlspace and I’ve ran Cat6 through it as needed in the past. Given the size of the house, there are only a small number of possible places for equipment. I’ve called this on the “path of least resistance” not necessarily JUST because of aesthetics, but because it already has an electric outlet on the inside. And while this location might be the “best” one from my wife’s perspective, she would be fine with a few other locations as well, so luckily that’s not a huge obstacle. I’ve minimized my use of WiFi by hardwiring as much of my network as possible—Xbox, desktop, Apple TV, etc. and I have always avoided WiFi IoT devices and gone with Z wave first, Zigbee second and am/will be trying to learn how to use some of the Bluetooth integrations.

As far as scanning, great idea. I have T Mobile home internet, and since we are still in the midst of doing some renovations I haven’t got anything permanently installed yet, so you have reminded me of a couple things. First is that I need to do the signal analysis for the T Mobile router, so as I’m doing that I should also do the analysis for other bands as well, keeping good records as I go. Second is I forgot that Z wave builds its network the way it does and shouldn’t be moved around much…I had a Vivint system in our old house and learned that the hard way when I swapped devices in and out. Given that I have a lot of devices in boxes, I’m going to wait until I get the antennas in place before I install them. (I think I saw that there’s a button that can do them all at once when I get to that point.) Your comment right there probably saved me some headaches, so thank you.

I guess my question back though is what people do to separate your antennas? Are you talking about a matter of inches/feet or multiple meters? Like I said, I’ve got T Mobile Home Internet (Location yet TBD based on best cell signal) and then that gets hooked up via Cat6 to a Google Mesh system with three pucks. From any one of the Google Pucks, I can have Cat6 going to the HA Green so don’t actually need the WiFi in that same room. In a smaller one-floor house like mine, three pucks should be fine and gets me pretty good flexibility. So from that pretty flexible foundation, I then have closets in each bedroom and the pictured water heater closet where I can reasonably expect to permanently install the HA Green.

I’ve got a powered USB 2.0 hub hooked up to the HA Green, and to that I have the ZWA-2 antenna, which comes with a fairly long USB cord, plugged in to one port. Then, to one of its other ports, I have the Sonoff Zigbee Dongle. And I don’t actually have the Bluetooth thing hooked up yet. So while I understand I don’t want these things on top of each other, without POE at some point you’re bumping up against the reality that USB cords only go so far, right? And so they all have to get back to that hub. So I guess what I’m hearing is once I determine which of those closets is best situated, from a radio interference perspective, to “host” the Green, I still would need to fine-tune each individual antenna looking at x,y,z axis orientation as well as proximity to the equipment each of those antennas is communicating with and potential obstacles. (Like I know my Z wave locks and outdoor building sensors are on one side of my house, whereas the Zigbee devices are probably slightly weighted to the other side of the house with no outdoor items.) Am I understanding you correctly?

And many thanks again.

@boheme61 Is there a reason you crossed out Z Wave or was that done automatically? And upon further review, I won’t actually need to have WiFi in that room. The HA in that room will be connected via Cat6, so one less antenna I guess. As for being in a small sealed room, from my understanding for radio waves, they don’t care if its small and sealed at all; all they care about is the metal, which is why I was curious about the water heater itself interfering with the signals. Assuming the water heater interference isn’t an obstacle—and I’ve got some advice to do some scanning to evaluate that, is there something else I’m missing about having this setup in a small sealed room that would degrade the signal? Being early enough in the planning stages, I have a chance to avoid obstacles now rather than remediate them later if I know what they are. (And my wife is mostly OK with this stuff, but probably would draw the line if I wanted to distribute the antennas one in each closet in the entire house.)

@tmjpugh brought up a good point about the water pipes themselves spraying during the event of a leak, which is definitely something I would need to consider, and @Spiro mentioned the heat from the water heater but as I replied there, I don’t think that’s an issue but will monitor temperatures for the next few weeks as I continue working.

Thanks to everyone for responding.

2.4Ghz resonant wavelength is about 5 inches or 12cm. Any closer and they will probably interfere, especially if transmitting. Orientating them at right angles to each other can reduce this, but then you have to consider where the signals are directed.

All these devices, shouting at each other at radio frequencies - can you rationalise them to keep it down to a dull roar?

Your walls in the sealed room might be opaque to radio waves, depending on their composition. Your hot water system will definitely act as a barrier for line of sight, so consider putting everything on a shelf above it our of harms way, keeping in mind that hot air rises so might be trapped in an unventilated room. If your body is not comfortable with temperature and humidity, your equipment won’t be either.

Any pipes in the room can also act as radio signal modifiers. Their effect may be far smaller than the big metal mass of the hot water boiler.

Consider if long USB leads are only carrying power, or signals too. Price often reflects quality, so be careful with substitutions.

I vertically mounted a 2U rack server and 24 port switch on wall in my bedroom closet behind the shirts.

Perfect location as the clothes muted the LOUD fans

HI, Z-Wave i “crossed-out” because i initially though this would be your least concern, and with your new added “perspective” things become more clear to me aswell.
I was imagine me this small room as a “space” which where all “external” IOT-Devices signal had to meet-up, going in and out.to respective Router/Controller

I was thinking about suggesting you to drag-out, some antennas and also “separate” the areas/device placement, but i now see that this is already a fact, with your i.Zigbee devices, and WiFI is “covered” AP’s, and as i You also seems to prefer wired, where possible.
As for Zigbee i actually have 2 separate networks(and different integrations), on different Channels, But the Controllers actually only 1meter and a thin wooden-wall apart, 1 is mostly covering devices in north-east side (front-part) of the building (1st floor), the other south-west part(1st-floor) and few in basement n outside.
Both Zigbee -Controllers are Wired to same switch where i have HA connected to. HA+Switch in a Cabinet/walk-in Closet(and actually currently my main-Router also), in Central part of the house ( Like your Water-heater-room ) , My only concerned was it’s where the Chimney goes, for my wooden/and el-heat-pump , beneath in basement, but that’s solved with an additional “wall-air.channel” inbetween
As for Basement/Utility-Rooms (Panroom, Well-pump room, Laundry etc.) i have 1-zigbee-extender, but mainly i have 868mHz devices for Basement(Concrete-Walls)+Garage+Outdoor. (also these temp/humid sensors seem to better cope with higher frequent changes and higher humid, than zigbees/which batteries also drains fast)

Not quite true, dunno where you read this, signals get “weaken” for any walls/obstacle and distanc they have to “fight” , and if it’s several on same frequence they also have to “fight” this., it’s not like they “line-up” like we do in the supermarket :grin:

However after you “filled in” my blanks, i now get a picture that you have thought about most, already, and are aware

And the “issue” about ( What’s that antenna doing there ? ) i do follow your Wife, they do so not fit-in/match a home-inventories esthetic or mentally :grin:
Radio-Signals are bouncing, get absorbed, scattered and weakened for various reasons, and “antennas” are a history of it’s own
Understanding Wireless Performance and Coverage - Cisco Meraki Documentation .

Nearly forgot " Bluetooth ", that’s because i rule that out years ago, might be better now, but for Bluetooth it’s something i enable/disable when i need it, on phones, laptops etc. i.e 3 years ago, Bluetooth temp/humid sensors, was just a a hassle

Thanks everyone for your words and guidance in this topic! I’m probably still a week or two away from being able to do a really thorough scanning but that helps give me time to plan it out deliberately.