Advice from HA Experts needed

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I seem to see more odd problems on the forums arising on OSX. It may be just perception.

I always think Apple hardware is too expensive to use for an always on server. It seems a waste to pay a premium for hardware and those wonderful graphics to use it like that. If I was using an old mac mini as a server I would run linux on it.

I also don’t believe in running HA in a virtual environment on what is essentially a desktop. Desktops seem to need rebooting often. This is the antithesis of reliability. (And may not be true of OSX)

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Everybody has got their own preferences and needs. I had my mac mini running 24/7 for my music system so it made sense (for me) to run HA on it as well. And although it’s a desktop I actually never need to reboot it.

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Hi Finity, that is not the case at all. I’m not here expecting to be taught and you’re right, I have not dug into HA documentation. I’m here trying to get a better overall understanding of Home Automation / Control systems so that I can make an informed decision.

What I’m appreciating about this forum is the exceptional friendly nature of members who’ve gone out of their way to provide excellent advice and insights that would otherwise cost me countless hours. Thanks to them, I’ve learnt about HA and many other aspects that I would not have thought of.

I do understand the point you’re making though. If you don’t jump into the water, you can’t learn how to swim.

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Hi Nick, thanks for the link. Excellent explanation and so true. Love the overall idea of transparent functionality that adds real value and falls back to manual mode when things go wrong.

Those are very useful tips, I will look into each in more detail. You’re right about Sonos, they’ve upset a lot of their clients. The NUC approach seems attractive and an ideal in terms of hardware reliability.

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I quite like the floor plan based approach and the clean simple Layouts as an alternative. Is this possible via python coding or is it HTML5 and CSS3 based ?

If I design the UI in Adobe Illustrator, can I easily map all the buttons and icons ?

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There is a search button at the top of the page, but I have done it for you: Floorplan for Home Assistant

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The link that Nick sent was the old implementation for floorplans. You can do this directly in the HA Lovelace GUI now, but if you search you will find plenty of info on this forum. In fact there have been countless threads from people asking the same questions you are having not read the official docs, installed HA to play with it or used the search function on this forum. Do yourself a favour an read / play with an actual HA instance and go from there.

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I wouldn’t recommend installing this for clients unless you want your entire job to be tech support after a few installs. Even if you don’t update HA, something else will update or break it’s integration and you’ll be called to fix it. A subscription model does make sense in this instance, and could actually be a nice retainer wage if you’re into that kind of work.

In the future we might see HA implement a Long Term Support release cycle which would help a bit (especially for simpler installs) but due to the sheer amount of integrations available and how fast this space is moving it’s hard to imagine not always tinkering.
I have a couple of dozen lights, heaps of sonoff tasmota plugs, a few power monitoring things and a custom arduino irrigation system. I tend to update every month and it’s not too bad. Some weekends I get inspired and add new things and put a bunch of time into it, but mostly I’ve relaxed a bit now (2 years in) and am happy it works reliably.

I run HA in VirtualBox on an old MacMini with an SSD. It also runs a Plex server and a few minecraft worlds. It’s been rock solid. I got it second hand off eBay (added the SSD in) it was well priced. It’s up for months at a time, no need for reboots.

The Apple world works surprisingly well with HA. A current Apple TV runs as the hub, and anything I expose to HomeKit from HA is easily accessible remotely, no port forwarding or DYnDNS or cloud subscription needed. I like it this way. Siri integration works well too. The wife is very into this setup because it’s simple. I use the HA iOS app for some config but not really in day to day use.

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Subscription is the future

Breaking not happen by magic or randomly. Only happen at update and if happen before you should have fixed at initial install.
You have 2 choice.

  1. Install and not update unless by request (service charge or part of maintenance package)
  2. Update with each version and charge for this upfront also setting customer expectation of issues up front.

I was told updating with each new version needed but I still believe this not completely true. Some security exploit to login would be my expected big worry and If this big concern just use Nginx or other frontend to control access/login. I’d imagine compromised component is local only exploit and in consumer case they have larger issue if worry about local person exploit. Businesses can manage this by other means.

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I wasn’t meaning HA breaking itself (you’re right about potential breaks at update only) but it’s likely an installed product or phone OS or something will update and no longer work the same with HA. It’s not something you can leave by itself for years I don’t think (unless you’re using a very simple system).

I work as an indi software developer. Software maintenance is a huge consideration for me choosing clients and projects. It could easily become nightmarish, especially because you’re dealing with people’s houses. I wouldn’t want late night calls because a garage door is playing up.

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Hi Samazar,

The community around the PLC home automation has primarily been using the Wago PFC200 as central PLC unit. If you buy it from a retailer it will set you back around $600-700 which isn’t a small number… It’s however also possible to buy some online (ebay auction, requires some patience however) and then the price can vary from $200-$400 ($200 if you are very lucky…).

Then you only have the base controller and still need to purchase digital IO, analog IO modules. Again Ebay is a goldmine if you wan’t to save some money.

This hardware is build to last so buying second hand IO modules from Ebay is definitely worth it, I never had a problem with any IO module I ordered…

I wouldn’t think/worry about a fail-safe system around the PLC. If you check industrial setups these don’t have fail-safe systems as well and that’s because PLCs are so reliable… Furthermore from a design perspective that would complicate things as the PLC wouldn’t have 100% certainty on the state of it outputs because of the fail-safe system build around the PLC making things very very difficult…

Agree that retro-fit installations need another approach but nevertheless a PLC in combo with HA is a very viable option for a wired setup.

I don’t have the necessary knowledge to answer your switch question but having some experience with multiple security cams I can see that a ‘regular’ 1GB switch has never failed me in regard in bandwitch for camera’s…

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True. Good point

This depends on used products and can be mitigated to some degree.

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Thanks Steve, good point - I suppose that would apply to any and every system, not just HA.

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Extremely useful and credible information - Thank you Michvw.

What cameras do you like / prefer ?

720p or 1080p ? - I presume most are based on the H264 or H265 standard. I hear some are quite advanced now in terms of night vision and other AI related functions e.g. distinguishing a cat or dog from a human being and defining virtual perimeters. A NAS based NVR would be nice too as opposed to being stuck with proprietory NVR systems.

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Thank you Nick

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Thanks Dave, I really appreciate your input. You are right indeed, I need to get cracking with HA at a practical level. Will do that at some point, hopefully soon.

Watched the “misperry” video pertaining to the HA Lovelace GIU, very interesting.

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My experience is very limited on regard of security cameras. I only have used Sony cameras but that was for a big company. They are quite pricey for home usage. Sony does however have the best image quality at low light situation and also I’m told that their lenses remain more qualitative as the years pass (colors etc…)

But again, you’re asking somebody with experience only on Sony cams.

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Greetings to all fellow members who were kind enough to provide useful input when I started this thread about 3 years ago. I hope you and your families are all well. In all honesty, I decided not to venture in home automation solutions and services due to the advent of C19 and the terrible effect that it had on the economy. However, I’ve decided to revive this thread to find out where HA is currently sitting, I’m sure things have progressed a lot and the product has matured quite a bit.

Did a bit of research pertaining to Crestron Home (OS 4) and I must admit, it is a very nice product. Love the UI and UX aspects of their exceptional control app. Furthermore, their propriety hardware devices seem to be well built with long-term reliability in mind. Having said that, it is quite an expensive solution which defies the whole point of my intention to provide a reliable, easy to use and affordable home automation solution.

Love the fact that HA is available in a ready to use or set-up version, I think it’s called ‘Green’. Can this handle large houses too? Most of my clients want reliability and simplicity, most will automate the following only:-

  1. Lighting.
  2. Whole house music - This will always end-up being Sonos as I’ve had good experience with Sonos and their support is fantastic, I’m currently looking at Octavio but it’s a fairly new products and not as diverse as Sonos.
  3. Shades / Curtains - Only some clients request for this.
  4. Simple relay switches - Some clients may want to switch on / off a hot water boiler although this is becoming less popular with the advent of solar heated water.

What I would want is simple and elegant light switches and curtain or shading products that are known to work well with HA and are designed to be rugged and last for years. Experienced users or installers can make some suggestions.

For centralised lighting control, does every individual circuit have to go to a clustered relay unit? Any recommendations and are they now as reliable as PLCs - I know a member here recommended them. Conversely, what is the best and most reliable way to handle retrofit projects in terms of lighting control? - do the switches use a wireless standard such as z-wave or zigbee? I would not want control to halt in the case where WiFi has a problem or goes down.

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Rule #1 - never make something ONLY able to be controlled via automation. Meaning, lightswitches should continue to act like regular lightswitches if the automation system is down.

That said, there is no reason not to use wifi for lightswitches. For a whole switch replacement, kasa is tough to beat. They look like normal decora switches, so you don’t have to teach anyone how to work them, they offer local control, and they are cheap. If the wifi is down, your customer will be understanding since many of their other things won’t work either. But at least they’ll still be able to use the lightswitches to operate the lights the “old fashioned way”.

As for your original questions - I don’t think HA is stable enough that I’d let someone pay me to install it in their house, even though I have entertained the thought from time to time. Still way too many breaking changes, unintentional “oopsies” and other assorted nonsense. I guess if you ONLY installed a standardized set of products and NEVER deviated from that list, and never updated a customer until you had it all sorted out in your test lab… Maybe? But that sounds like a lot of time and effort. How much is this going to pay you?

If you have “upper class” customers that want lots of fancy stuff, Sonos is not the answer. Get real speakers, with real speaker wire, and real multi-zone receivers to drive them. Then you can control it the same way as a home theater setup.

Motorized shades are EXPENSIVE for good ones, but they do work well. Hunter Douglas are quite nice.

Shelly makes very nice relays that can handle a good amount of power draw.

The UI will be as nice or as shitty as you make it - it’s fully customizable. I’ve been messing with mine for 2 years, and while it has definitely improved, it’s still not quite where I’d like it to be.

There are many, many more pieces to a truly automated home that you aren’t even considering - like motion detectors, contact sensors, water leak sensors, and more. Don’t take this the wrong way, but after how much time has elapsed and you still have the same 101-level questions… I don’t think you’re even remotely prepared to install this solution for anyone else as a paying customer. If you really want to go down this road, you need to get HA set up at your house. Go through the pain, buy the equipment, configure it all, and use it on a daily basis. Only then will you be able to answer your own questions. No amount of asking on here - or anywhere else - is going to give you the comfort level you appear to be searching for.

Lastly, home size has nothing to do with anything. I have friends that live in 2 bedroom apartments that have more home automation equipment than you even thought to ask about, and I have friends that live in 6k sf houses that have only shades and 3 lightswitches and a garage door opener. It’s not about size, it’s about complexity.

Again - set it up for yourself, and LEARN the product, EXPLORE the limitations.

Good luck!

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@exx covered most of it. But I am going to quibble with a couple of things.

I share the OP’s concern over using WiFi. Unless you’re also building and maintaining that system for them, you have no idea how reliable it may be. You may find you need to make changes to it, and once you touch it, you own it.

Another problem is that most WiFi devices are set up to use the manufacturer’s cloud servers. You have no control over how reliable their servers are. Manufacturers have been known to change their firmware and APIs, forcing more work on you. They’ve been known to start charging for formerly free services. And they’ve been known to simply go out of business. Not something I’d want to offer a paying customer.

Which brings me to my last point: TP-Link and Kasa. These are an ongoing source of frustration for users here (just search the forum.) TP-Link used to support local control, but over the past few years they’ve introduced firmware updates which have been slowly eroding this. Just the other day I was reading a post by a HA user who inadvertently lost the blocking they’d set up for all their TP-Link devices and they got firmware updates. Now they keep rebooting because they can’t “phone home” to the vendor’s server.

It’s bad enough when this happens to your home devices. Can you imagine if it happened to all your customers’ devices?

I second the OP’s preference for local protocols like Zigbee and Z-Wave. Once they’re installed and working, they will continue working. You don’t need to worry about the manufacturer changing something out from under you.