Advice from HA Experts needed

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@exx covered most of it. But I am going to quibble with a couple of things.

I share the OP’s concern over using WiFi. Unless you’re also building and maintaining that system for them, you have no idea how reliable it may be. You may find you need to make changes to it, and once you touch it, you own it.

Another problem is that most WiFi devices are set up to use the manufacturer’s cloud servers. You have no control over how reliable their servers are. Manufacturers have been known to change their firmware and APIs, forcing more work on you. They’ve been known to start charging for formerly free services. And they’ve been known to simply go out of business. Not something I’d want to offer a paying customer.

Which brings me to my last point: TP-Link and Kasa. These are an ongoing source of frustration for users here (just search the forum.) TP-Link used to support local control, but over the past few years they’ve introduced firmware updates which have been slowly eroding this. Just the other day I was reading a post by a HA user who inadvertently lost the blocking they’d set up for all their TP-Link devices and they got firmware updates. Now they keep rebooting because they can’t “phone home” to the vendor’s server.

It’s bad enough when this happens to your home devices. Can you imagine if it happened to all your customers’ devices?

I second the OP’s preference for local protocols like Zigbee and Z-Wave. Once they’re installed and working, they will continue working. You don’t need to worry about the manufacturer changing something out from under you.

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HA IS VERY STABLE

  • pick a version and stick with it for customer installs
  • test new version before install cuz updating once a month in commercial environment would be stupid and a mess and require support time you dont have (this should be in contract)
  • customer pay for update and maybe have some exception for vulnerability

HARDWARE

  • do not use RasPi for commercial
  • NUC at minimum and maybe something more. Not only for performance but reliability

DEVICES

  • take time and choose some devices for every need. These are your go to. If all customer using same items it will make it easier to track known problems, know fixes for what problems occur, it fast path to expert. Using random stuff will lead to problems everywhere that u dont understand or aren’t very familiar with.
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I’m not sure what happened with that guy, but whatever it was, I don’t believe that to be the whole story.

I have over 60 KASA devices, and have had them for coming up on 2 years. I continue adding devices every few months or so as I find the time to rewire problem circuits. KASA switches cannot and do not update firmware on their own, it MUST be done through the app - so regardless whether or not they can “phone home”, they don’t update anything on their own. Further, that post even says “I think” - meaning the dude has no clue, and didn’t verify anything - yet here you are quoting it as gospel. Shenanigans.

Further, I have never used the cloud integration (do they even have one?), I only use the local HA control - and have never once had an issue.

How many KASA devices do YOU have? Have YOU had any issues? Let’s stick to offering advice about things we have direct, first-hand knowledge of rather than playing the proverbial telephone game.

The fact of the matter is, this is a support forum. Nobody comes here to say “My X is awesome!
It works all the time! Great job, manufacturer!”

Search for ANYTHING and all you’re going to find is post after post of broken stuff. To that end, look at what just happened with z-wave. Look at the ridiculous issues with zigbee with 2023.5. Everything is broken, constantly. But, based on the above - no, once zigbee and zwave are installed and working, they won’t just magically “continue working”. In fact, NOTHING with Home Assistant just “continue(s) working”.

I promise, there’s nothing wrong with any of the KASA stuff.

Now, having said all that - your concern over the customer’s WiFi is well-founded; however IMO a network - WiFi or otherwise - is an integral part of a home automation solution, and if OP isn’t going to specify/install/configure WiFi for his customers, then I’d not get involved in the first place. You’re just ASKING for trouble. Customers making changes to their firewall disallowing external access to HA, breaking DNS, introducing other rules that prevent something else from working… If network management is out of scope, then the project is a non-starter in my POV. Honestly, anyone smart enough to properly build and manage a network is smart enough to handle their own HA deployment as well - and the inverse is also true.

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Sorry, but that’s not right… :wink: It is a non-open, manufacturer-cloud dependent software, where you have no idea, how long it will work, or what it exactly does in your home. That’s 180° the opposite of what HA stands for: open - local - sustainable.

That might sound a bit angry, and it is (not with you, with the marketing of all the big companies!). This is nothing else than what every other big firm has in their portfolio. A closed-source, non local, non controllable and not auditable piece of software, that has taken it’s design choices from Apple. Btw. if you like that style, take a look at Mushroom-cards. It looks almost exactly like it, but with a little more configuration possibilties.

I’m sorry, this is so against everything HA stands for…

Sonos is already on the path to be an unusable system. Did you know, that Sonos has a program running at the moment, where they render older devices unusable, because “they are not secure anymore”. Wait, they build it, they sold it to me for a lot of money, and now they want to tell me, when to buy something new, regardless if the speaker still works or not - with the last update it is simply made useless, but they offer a buy-back program… Yepp, exactly what every buyer wants. A system where the manufacturer disables your hardware. And why can’t they make the older models safe and secure in the first place, I mean it’s their product?

It is the same thing with most other systems, that had difficulties in the last years. Smartthings ring a bell? Or was it Insteon? Oh, right, both of them left their paying customers with non-working devices, without any chance of using them any further. For Insteon some “freaks” did setup a new cloud server, but is this really a solution?

Home Assistant is going a totally different way, and we as users should support that in any way necessary. And it is the only system, you can right now classify as a sustainable system. With HA you will only need to change a device (whatever it is), when it is broken, not when someone decides, more money is needed or there is not enough money anymore to run the cloud…

What I want to say is: you were right to come here to HA! It beats most other home automation systems, especially closed-sourced ones, in almost every aspect. And if you want a sustainable product, you have finished your journey! So welcome to the really cool stuff - Home Assistant!

And please, don’t take this rant personally, it really is not, but I can see, where good marketing can make people blind for the downfalls of a product. For me it really is a personal matter, and so I get very passionate, if people fall for the marketing quotes, where HA definitly has the better product! :slight_smile:

No hard feelings :slight_smile:

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@exx . I am “that guy” with the TPLink devices that have suddenly gone nuts. I have been a networking engineer for most my 57 years on this planet and am pretty experienced with troubleshooting network issues. Just like clockwork, if I enable an Internet block on my TPLink devices (via my Linksys EA8500 running DD-WRT), which are all on their own IP block so it’s pretty simple, not all of them, but a good percentage of them suddenly start requesting DHCP updates. This is NOT normal. I remove the block, they stop with the DHCP BS. If you have another explanation of how this could happen, I would certainly love to hear your ideas.

Yet another piece of evidence…The Kasa app once had a “Remote Control” switch on each device. Now, out of 15 devices, only one Remote Control switch shows up on a very old HS103 running FW v1.1.4. At one time, they all had it. However, even though this one switch has Remote Control turned off, it is STILL available in my Kasa app when away from home. This should NOT be the case.

I have been buying these products for years, and they have worked extremely reliably for all this time. While I am only using 15 at this time, I probably have about 25 in total. I have four HS220 wall dimmers (HW v3.0 FW v1.0.10) that have been working perfectly until the last FW update, which I did manually do. Up until that point, they were quiet happy being blocked, but not anymore.

Facts are needed. On my OP I will add every device I have in operation, with all HW and SW versions. Maybe we need to get some comparisons. I would like to get the bottom of this issue and the sooner the better.

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@lexridge I respect your experience, and I meant no disrespect with my previous comments - though I do appreciate the additional color. I, myself, have been in networking/systems/virtualization/etc etc professionally for over 25 years - consulting in LARGE enterprise environments (60k+ users), so I’m right there with you.

I didn’t see that you did update the firmware in your post when I read it - it read to me as though you were guessing they had updated. If you did manually update the firmware, and then the problems began - then yes, I would most certainly blame that on the firmware.

As for what you’re reporting - I just opened my KASA app, which I ONLY ever use when adding a new device, so it’s been… 4 or 5 months perhaps?

Interestingly, the app shows that only 24 of my devices are online, the rest are shown as offline. Additionally, for the devices that are shown as online, I don’t see a “remote access switch”? In fact, I don’t recall having ever seen that before? Maybe it was there but I never noticed, and now it’s gone? I’m using Android, BTW. Are you using iOS? Perhaps the “remote control” switch was an iOS-only thing? Uncertain.

EDIT: Read your other post, and I see you’re using Android as well.

My app is v3.3.501 build 1218

Regardless - part of the issue may be that there was a power outage here due to storms over the weekend. Because of that, about half of my switches fell off the network, and when they came back, HA was unable to communicate with them. I bounced them all from one AP to another (I use Ubiquiti), and then HA was able to communicate with them just fine after that.

I did look at my switches until I found an HS220 - The specs on mine are: HW v3.0, FW v1.0.3.

I have found that for silly little devices such as these, the old “if it ain’t broke, don’t fix it” adage always works well. We’re not talking about firewalls or edge devices subject to zero-day exploits here. As such, they work fine, so I see no reason to update the firmware.

Having said that - if new firmware did, in fact, break yours (or at least cause the weird behavior you are describing, anyway - not sure if the constant DHCP update requests are service-impacting?), then that’s crap, and I will definitely be on the lookout for that - in addition to changing my tune about recommending them - which sucks, since I have so many, AND I have at least a dozen more still sitting in boxes waiting for me to install them.

Other devices and version info for mine:

KS230 HW v1.0 FW v1.0.10
HS200 HW v5.0 FW v1.0.2
HS210 HW v3.0 FW v1.0.2
HS220 HW v3.0, FW v1.0.3

Local control still works fine for all devices that I have.

Now you have me interested - and concerned - about this.

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No disrespect taken. Seems you are quite experienced too. :slight_smile:

I had updated the four wall switches as I had only recently purchased them and stupid me thought, it couldn’t hurt. lol However, it still doesn’t explain the ones I did not update, and they ALL started this activity at the the same time. Well, not all, but 12 out of the 15 devices did anyway.

Same, I only use the app when adding new devices and troubleshooting.

I am 100% with you there and normally don’t bother if things are working perfectly or a must have new feature is introduced.

I think I have found the solution. It was posted in my thread.

Good information. We should perhaps create a thread and consolidate this at some point.

Thank you for your outstanding reply.

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Thank you @tmjpugh, I appreciate the optimism and what you have said makes a lot of sense. You are right indeed. Most if not all my installations will be very simple and will only involve the following in order of priority: Lighting, Security Cams, Music and Curtains.

Updates would only be done very carefully once they have been tested and confirmed to be stable and useful.

My clients would not mind paying a reasonable fee for updates and maintenance. Maintaining good relations with clients is very important to me because my business is bound to grow via referrals.

HARDWARE

  • do not use RasPi for commercial
  • NUC at minimum and maybe something more. Not only for performance but reliability

I take note of your advice and recommendations. The master unit needs to be super reliable even if it costs more. You mentioned NUC and maybe something more - what is that something more. What would be the most reliable hardware to run HA on?

You are right indeed, performance is only half the equation, reliability is extremely important and forms the other half. What about the ‘Green’ console that is already configured for HA?

DEVICES

  • take time and choose some devices for every need. These are your go to. If all customer using same items it will make it easier to track known problems, know fixes for what problems occur, it fast path to expert. Using random stuff will lead to problems everywhere that u dont understand or aren’t very familiar with.

Exactly!!! - it’s like you have read my mind. I want to use ONLY those devices that are tested and known to work really well with HA. Almost like HA Certified Devices if there is such a thing or standard endorsed by third party device developers.

Please, if there are any HA lovers or installers out there that have had the privilege to build such experience over time then please share because in all honesty, I have no clue. All I need is to know the best and most reliable lighting switches, curtain mechanisms (side to side or roll down), security cameras and music. For music, I love the reliability of Sonos and their support is really good, they’ve never left me in the woods but am open to suggestions. I’m a huge believer of wiring all devices when possible for 100% reliability.

For new builds we would insist on designing the LAN / WiFi infrastructure. I have access to Ubiquity UniFi gear. The idea is simplicity, reliability and affordability.

It would be awesome if the HA interface (Phone / Tablet App) can have a clean and intuitive interface such as the one used by the Crestron Home App. After all, that is what the enduser will see and use.

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I cannot agree more with you, that is exactly what I would want for all my installs in terms of lighting.

That said, there is no reason not to use wifi for lightswitches. For a whole switch replacement, kasa is tough to beat. They look like normal decora switches, so you don’t have to teach anyone how to work them, they offer local control, and they are cheap. If the wifi is down, your customer will be understanding since many of their other things won’t work either. But at least they’ll still be able to use the lightswitches to operate the lights the “old fashioned way”.

Thank you @exx, that is the kind of advice I need at this point. If we are designing and installing the LAN and WiFi infrastructure then that will give us confidence. I may make that a mandatory pre-requisite in order to minimise LAN/WiFi related issues. I will certainly look into Kasa switches. Similarly, any recommendations for Curtain draw mechanisms and cameras?

As for your original questions - I don’t think HA is stable enough that I’d let someone pay me to install it in their house, even though I have entertained the thought from time to time. Still way too many breaking changes, unintentional “oopsies” and other assorted nonsense.

In all honesty, that has been my concern from day one and the reason for my procrastination. However, I feel there is a first step to everything as long as it is a well informed step. I really need to start somewhere if you know what I mean.

I guess if you ONLY installed a standardized set of products and NEVER deviated from that list, and never updated a customer until you had it all sorted out in your test lab… Maybe? But that sounds like a lot of time and effort. How much is this going to pay you?

You’ve hit the nail on the head, that is exactly what I am after. Margins will certainly not be big as most of my clients want an affordable and reliable solutions. However, carefully done, this could mean more projects for me. The idea being a careful and well planned approach to avoid call-backs as much as possible.

If you have “upper class” customers that want lots of fancy stuff, Sonos is not the answer. Get real speakers, with real speaker wire, and real multi-zone receivers to drive them. Then you can control it the same way as a home theater setup.

Most of my clients are middle-class families and Sonos has worked well. It’s great that you mention home theatre. I’ve been looking for a cost effective single remote based automation solution for home theater spaces. I’ve been looking at rti and URC but am not fully convinced, they are not cheap. Any suggestions? Is there a HA based solution?

Motorized shades are EXPENSIVE for good ones, but they do work well. Hunter Douglas are quite nice.

Thanks for that reference, I will certainly have a look at Hunter Douglas.

Shelly makes very nice relays that can handle a good amount of power draw.

Love the way you are highlighting devices, it will save me weeks of research. I really appreciate your useful input. I will definitely have a look at Shelly relays.

The UI will be as nice or as shitty as you make it - it’s fully customizable. I’ve been messing with mine for 2 years, and while it has definitely improved, it’s still not quite where I’d like it to be.

I’m glad to learn that the interface is fully customisable, I’d attempt to design one simple and clean interface that can then be used by all clients. Has someone out there already done something like that and selling the interface. I really like the interface of Crestron Home, it’s simple, elegant and intuitive.

There are many, many more pieces to a truly automated home that you aren’t even considering - like motion detectors, contact sensors, water leak sensors, and more. Don’t take this the wrong way, but after how much time has elapsed and you still have the same 101-level questions… I don’t think you’re even remotely prepared to install this solution for anyone else as a paying customer. If you really want to go down this road, you need to get HA set up at your house. Go through the pain, buy the equipment, configure it all, and use it on a daily basis. Only then will you be able to answer your own questions. No amount of asking on here - or anywhere else - is going to give you the comfort level you appear to be searching for.

I have not taken this the wrong way. On the contrary, I really appreciate your direct and down-to-earth advice., it is what I need and have been looking for. Yes, I have been paranoid about providing a home automation solution and service but have always loved the idea and concept of home automation. It is this fear and paranoia that has led me to start this thread and gather enough knowledge to make sensible decisions. It has sort of given me a bird’s eye view of the home automation industry. I know HA is probably diverse and can support many more aspects of automation but I want to start with the simple stuff. My opinion is that automation should be invisible and sort of seamless such that it complements life and adds efficiency as opposed to being cool and a show-off element to impress guests or visitors (although I know it happens and I’m not against those who like that perspective). I have no doubt that automation will become a norm and a common standard in future homes.

In a nutshell, you are absolutely correct. I need to incorporate HA in my own living space and gain real-world experience. That is something that I need to do and will do. I really appreciate your reality-check based advice :blush:

Lastly, home size has nothing to do with anything. I have friends that live in 2 bedroom apartments that have more home automation equipment than you even thought to ask about, and I have friends that live in 6k sf houses that have only shades and 3 lightswitches and a garage door opener. It’s not about size, it’s about complexity.

Point noted and thank you for clarifying that. I was just wondering whether HA in the Green Box version can control a big house environment just in case one lands on such a project. I notice commercial control processors have a technical sheets that highlight their scope.

Again - set it up for yourself, and LEARN the product, EXPLORE the limitations.

That is a very good suggestion and I take it seriously. I can tell you are an automation expert or someone with a deep insight into HA. I have appreciated your input Sir.

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That makes sense, is it possible to centralise the lighting control by cabling every light switch via CAT-6 ? - This would mean that all lighting circuits would have to come to a central relay matrix that is controlled by HA, is that right?

I do like what @exx suggested: Light switches should continue to work when the automation system is down.

Another problem is that most WiFi devices are set up to use the manufacturer’s cloud servers. You have no control over how reliable their servers are. Manufacturers have been known to change their firmware and APIs, forcing more work on you. They’ve been known to start charging for formerly free services. And they’ve been known to simply go out of business. Not something I’d want to offer a paying customer.

How does one solve that? Is it possible to prevent this from happening?

Which brings me to my last point: TP-Link and Kasa. These are an ongoing source of frustration for users here (just search the forum.) TP-Link used to support local control, but over the past few years they’ve introduced firmware updates which have been slowly eroding this. Just the other day I was reading a post by a HA user who inadvertently lost the blocking they’d set up for all their TP-Link devices and they got firmware updates. Now they keep rebooting because they can’t “phone home” to the vendor’s server.

This is worrying. I have access to and would use UniFi switches and APs. I prefer running cables (CAT-6) to every device in new builds. However for retro-fits, one has to work with wireless solutions.

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I understand so no need to apologise. I love the whole concept of HA as an open source solution. My customers are after affordable solutions that are reliable too.

Sonos is already on the path to be an unusable system. Did you know, that Sonos has a program running at the moment, where they render older devices unusable, because “they are not secure anymore”. Wait, they build it, they sold it to me for a lot of money, and now they want to tell me, when to buy something new, regardless if the speaker still works or not - with the last update it is simply made useless, but they offer a buy-back program… Yepp, exactly what every buyer wants. A system where the manufacturer disables your hardware. And why can’t they make the older models safe and secure in the first place, I mean it’s their product?

You are right indeed, I was very disappointed with Sonos when they took that decision, some of my clients were extremely unhappy. I continue to use Sonos because they just work and their support is fantastic. I’m considering other solutions though.

It is the same thing with most other systems, that had difficulties in the last years. Smartthings ring a bell? Or was it Insteon? Oh, right, both of them left their paying customers with non-working devices, without any chance of using them any further. For Insteon some “freaks” did setup a new cloud server, but is this really a solution?

I hate companies that do that and have no regard for their customers. That is why I am being super careful and need to pick my devices carefully. The Neeo remote comes to mind, started-off so well and then they left all their clients in the woods.

Home Assistant is going a totally different way, and we as users should support that in any way necessary. And it is the only system, you can right now classify as a sustainable system. With HA you will only need to change a device (whatever it is), when it is broken, not when someone decides, more money is needed or there is not enough money anymore to run the cloud…

Very good point and why I am interested in HA. Thanks to this forum and fellow members who are helping me build confidence.

What I want to say is: you were right to come here to HA! It beats most other home automation systems, especially closed-sourced ones, in almost every aspect. And if you want a sustainable product, you have finished your journey! So welcome to the really cool stuff - Home Assistant!

Very encouraging words, thank you @paddy0174

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You must have been around in IT as long as I have. I never trusted wireless, either. But I’ve made my peace with it. Running cable to every device just can’t be justified in any normal residential environment.

Yes, this should be high on your list of design priorities. You should be able to turn HA (or whatever) off and people should still be able to live in the house.

Don’t buy anything which relies on an external network or server. The obvious solution is to only buy things which work on a local protocol like Zigbee or Z-Wave. Another is to buy WiFi devices which can be flashed with something like Tasmota or ESPHome. Finally, you can roll your own devices using ESP boards which you can flash with ESPHome, Tasmota or Arduino.

It should be very worrying. The fact is that any tech these days is pretty fast paced. Almost anything electronic is considered throw-away after a year or two. But homes can go decades between renovations. The only safe bet is to assume every manufacturer will abandon their product line in favor of The Next Big Thing after a year or two.

I should point out that even Zigbee and Z-Wave are not safe havens. There’s lots of noise in the HA development community about abandoning those in favor of Thread and Matter. No doubt by the time I get around to implementing that, it’ll be obsolete and they’ll be on to something else.

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I would have 3 levels.

Small home up to 3000sqft NUC
Mid size up to 7000 nuc or larger desktop
Large 5000 and up 1u server(i like supermicro)

Really it is not based on home size but equipment to be used and maybe customer budget and space for equipment

most home under 3000sqft may not have many(less than 5) camera so multiple HDD may not be needed for storage. Also GPU card not as likely

Desktop can have multiple HDD, fit GPU and have space for other cards. Same with 1u server. Really these are interchangeable. Will customer want plex or music server, maybe more HDD and storage space. Also space for backup or maybe you have RAID.

If you setup network maybe look at real firewall and whatever for switch and AP. Unifi USG is great but limited and the usb drive in them fails like crazy. You can plan for that but i switch away from USG to opnsense and it was life changing. You can also go ubiquiti edgerouter but i never used so cannot comment on it. After gateway the switches and AP matter less. Use what works for you. Unifi is great but there is other good stuff i hear(but never tried). I do have concern for unifi long term business but it good now so who cares.

You may create vpn tunnel or whatever for remote support but beware not to be the backdoor for larger problem. Maybe some method to require physical intervention. Cellular connection that requires power turn on by switch to enable.(up charge) As your business grows if you have backdoor to customers you may become target. If you are target it is hard to stop. Just something to think about. Networking not my thing and i dont do PC support so no clue on possibilities.

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I have now read most of the advises giving to you here, and most of all your “Vision/ideas”

One(1) advice sticks out , install HA and learn/See for your self what you can accomplice and which “pitchfalls” their might be, which you HAVE TO take in consideration, before even start to consider selling any hardware/services.

Im very confused what you actually expects/think/believe your “clients” have for requirements and expectation upon what you intend to “Promote”

  1. Do you really think all your Clients have the same ideas of What and How their HomeAutomation system should provide ? (you can’t really expect all customers to buy the specific Ceilinglights/Covers/Sonos equipment etc. etc. as you “Provide/Configured HA to use)”, as a Total-Solution ?)
  2. Do you intend to make “predefined-only” automations etc., OR should people have the ability to make their own ( Which i strongly believe they expect from a paid HomeAutomation “Service/Hardware” )
  3. Sounds like you have a vision of selling a Total Solution ( which as some indicated, wifi, ethernet setup/hardware ) ALSO NON Configurable for Clients ?
  4. I already see alot “Pitfalls” in pt. 1-3 above , So i wont continue listing, what you are about to face, if you ever get to the point of Promoting/Selling your Services/Solution
  5. I’t 3.5 years since you Posted these “Thoughts” , and yet you have no idea of how HA works, Nor what it would require from yourself in terms of system-maintenance, and most of all your ability to persuade your Clients to believe that YOU should be in control, of their WIFI/Local-Network/External Network-access, Equipment(i.e Routers etc.)( So they i.e are capable of actually control the light/covers remotely etc. ), their Settings on Same, ALSO with “No Options” to change devices them self( Installing i.e extra lights/plugs/Covers, change Router Etc. Etc.
  6. Sure, You have an “Option” to add a “guest/Client)” as the Default-user, with no a very little options to make changes in the system, but before you learn the difference in the administrator-roll and “other(Clients)” user-rolls, and what these “rolls” options to make changes in the system, and the potential effects this can cause etc. Im thinking of “Clients-Customers/Peoples” constant idea-flow, and requirements changes in the daily life, then to make this another +10 pt.'s shorter

Install HA and start, by investigating, try out your “Idea” and the options HA have, or not, Im sure your 3.5 years thoughts will be put on a “TRIAL” , You would not only have to spend alot time to learn HA, You will gain 1000 NEW questions, during this you can analyses your idea of selling a system/solution , which requires YOU in control of Clients TOTAL network … True i have no idea who/which People your “Clients” are, regardless of their i.e social status, im sure they are all Individuals

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