Are HA Backups useless? 🚮 (sqlite db always corrupted)

[boheme61]

@HeyImAlex

294 bytes

You do have to take into account that what you are talking about is ONLY the data, and not how this data should be stored, and Not how the system/core and front-end have to call it… so you can’t compare, if you don’t take in consideration how an sqlite vs relational-db works … i fully agree that there are stored “a-lot” , one can reduce this some by not calling every “entity” i.e. ( sensor.myawasome_temperature_sensor_on first_floor ), and not include “entities” from a device that you know you’ll never use etc. and “measurement” and “unit_of_measurement” is hardly “redundant” in this sqlite-DB … and attributes, you don’t have much choices as it’s individual “information” from specific-device/sensor, if you call this information “redundant”, you have to study “Attributes” closer, as there are “variable-strings”, “states” etc. etc. in the Attributes- therefore the TEXT -type
And i just did a “compact db”, which reduced it 1/3, i know we are going towards a bigger and bigger “default” Installation, with alot more integrations, and therefore a bigger DB, there are Documentation in regards to this, Recorder etc. Tips on what to exclude, to reduce your installation and keeping it Healthy
A New default “External” DB is hardly a way forward for a product like HA, a Maria-DB won’t make any different, in the end it’s about how the user choose to Use the product … default it works for many, for others they HAVE TO follow up on the Upgrade-notes, and yes have to make additional decisions/settings to “Roll-On”

PS: and Aron was talking about DB-Size vs Data-Size … it’s simply wrong, and taken out of a very importent context DB-in-Aplication

[HeyImAlex (Alex)]

I’m afraid you don’t really understand how data is stored in databases on a low level.

@boheme61

You do have to take into account that what you are talking about is ONLY the data, and not how this data should be stored, and Not how the system/core and front-end have to call it…

The backend issues an SQL query over a time range defined by timestamps. That’s all there is on the call side. The problem is the way the data is stored (the data layout) and the subsequent processing into natively readable objects.

@boheme61

and “measurement” and “unit_of_measurement” is hardly “redundant” in this sqlite-DB

Of course it is. Your unit of measurement for a temperature sensor is not going to change from one sample point to the next. Storing it for every single sample is completely redundant, as are the attributes like friendly name, etc. This is high level structural data that will never change when acquiring data points. It needs to be stored in a separate table (or not at all, friendly name for example can be retrieved from the HA config instead) and indexed from the states.

@boheme61

PS: and Aron was talking about DB-Size vs Data-Size … it’s simply wrong, and taken out of a very importent context DB-in-Aplication

Data size is directly correlated to DB size and vice-versa in this context. The size of the management data itself is insignificant compared to the size of the stored data, as long as the redundancies are removed. In SQL, every native type has a fixed size in a cell, except for varchars (which are being much too liberally used by HA).

[boheme61]

@boheme61

one can reduce this some by not calling every “entity” i.e. ( sensor.myawasome_temperature_sensor_on first_floor ), and not include “entities” from a device that you know you’ll never use etc

i just checked my entities( potential events and states “spammer” )
about 300 ( if i use a “naming strategi” that reduce the Name and Entity Name with lets say 15 letters each ) ( 300x30=9000 Bytes) every 10 seconds ( 54000 Bytes a minut ) here we are talking “Redundant”

[boheme61]

@HeyImAlex

Your unit of measurement for a temperature sensor is not going to change from one sample point to the next.

i know , but this is not how this db works as i understand, but in a relation-db yes

[boheme61]

@HeyImAlex

friendly name for example can be retrieved from the HA config instead) and indexed from the states

There i agree, and don’t understand, as it’s already registered in config-files, as well as device-name … thou then, if it’s not stored in the event, then the underlying process have to read from these config- files … bump, +30% faster to read from db-blob … so we are back to “maintenance” of DB, if we want to have a fast responding UI and core

@HeyImAlex

except for varchars (which are being much too liberally used by HA).

i see 3 varchers in the example, state( can’t be different, unless TEXT) , entity_id ( you want INT here ? ), Domain ( what was it now 3 was ) … yes, i dont understand what you want it to be instead

[HeyImAlex (Alex)]

@boheme61

i know , but this is not how this db works as i understand, but in a relation-db yes

This has nothing to do with “how db works”. This is about the recorder component choosing how to store data in the DB by splitting it up into appropriate tables and interlinking them in such a way that static data gets only stored once while dynamic data is stored in a highly optimized cell layout linking back to the immutable data.

@boheme61

yes, i dont understand what you want it to be instead

I noticed. Don’t worry about it.

[boheme61]

@HeyImAlex

This has nothing to do with “how db works”. This is about the recorder component choosing how to store data in the DB by splitting it up into appropriate tables

i know the configuration/setup of the db didn’t came out of the blue , and i has also hope on that someone, some day will offer his time and expertise to develop the DB into today’s circumstances/demands ( Maybe even to MY satisfaction/ needs and preferences)( i have lots of idea and ways i want it), but im not in a position to complain about it, and don’t really find it appropriate, as i have “options” AS everyone else with just a little Computer knowledge’s … its’ just a click away, and scrolling a few docs, or dozen

[boheme61]

@boheme61

i just checked my entities( potential events and states “spammer” )
about 300 ( if i use a “naming strategi” that reduce the Name and Entity Name with lets say 15 letters each ) ( 300x30=9000 Bytes) every 10 seconds ( 54000 Bytes a minut ) here we are talking “Redundant”

PS: above would be Edit: 77 760 000 Bytes a day ( redundant_loooong_names ) … start thinking positive, there’s a-lot one can do, beside complaining

[boheme61]

@HeyImAlex

The backend issues an SQL query over a time range defined by timestamps. That’s all there is on the call side. The problem is the way the data is stored (the data layout) and the subsequent processing into natively readable objects.

I still would like to “see” that query in “action” … for i.e. A Switch 1 Basement, with 4 “Attribute” ( Total Power Switch 1 Basement (ad-ele) , Current Switch 1 Basement, Voltage switch1 Basement, Power switch 1 Basement ) … and your “proposed” Database-Model, tables-setup, relation etc … and why not an estimated comparing with current model , performance-vice ( I.E (open/close)Total and, read from config-files etc,… but of-cause also your use-case, for average user in terms of administration etc. on a “default MariaDB”, if that’s your thought, … or “just a new/rebuild” sqlite … im sure the "default image, will increase a-little( but we are there already( with all new Feature-Reqests/integrations/Product-support etc. ) implemented lately ( which i assume you also have taken in consideration in your judgement off current DB’s expansion, (beside the new entities and automatons you added, during same time , and the fact that Update-note, and “Heads-up” , in regards that Recorder Records ALL event’s and State-Changes now, if not “Told” other-vice, and to be honest, and why not those “Extra” entries you create-in-db, regardless of DB model, when you lower you sensor to “spew” every second, instead of 3 or 5 )
PS: I do know how a table look like, have experience from Oracle, MySQL, and now also a-little on how Grafana/Influx want’s to be asked nice ( haven’t manged to create a “unfortunate Loop” ) … yet

[AaronCake]

I think in my absence everything I was going to reply to was already said. I only get time to visit here occasionally and mainly on weekends.

Just a few points I want to make really…

SQLite is a perfectly capable relational database engine, so everything said here regarding changing the database structure to proper relational tables to avoid storing redundant data applies to it as well.

Relational database are by their very nature less flexible. That is a large part of the the point, actually. Storing data within that rigid structure means storing efficiently, predictably and in formats the database engine is optimized to work with.

The HA database is nothing special. It really isn’t. It would be trivial to design a relational schema to efficiently hold the data in say, 15 minutes. Probably most reading this thread with some database experience have already done so in their head. (I have).

Relational database engines are optimized to perform best when data is respectful of native data types and broken down to its elements. It is very costly for a database engine to parse a TEXT field of JSON to extract a value (and yes, I’m aware that JSON types now exist in many DB engines like MariaDB, however this is not universal). It is trivial for the DB engine to simply link together a few tables via JOINS. Especially if they are indexed properly.

If anyone is curious about how data can be stored across multiple tables and then combined in a query via relations, here’s a great place to start:

SQL Joins

There are actually a lot of decent tutorials out there (I just Googled) to get you working with a relational database and make the concepts much clearer. If you have Microsoft Access, Google up the famous “Northwind sample database” or install it directly from Access templates. It’s a relational database which is designed as an example and used in many tutorials.

[boheme61]

As Mentioned, there is a big difference in “Read About” and Understanding … but if you “Already” figured it out, i look forward to see Your proposed Model

Database size (on two days old stock HA over 1 GB) and how to proceed

yeah ok , and i still haven’t seen that DB/Table models you and others “refers to”, i.e weather-entity(attributes) camera_device-entity(attributes) , stock_market-entity(attributes) etc. etc. , … take a look in your own “entities” Attributes (i.e. in Developers Tools), … then write down your "Proposed DB/Table model, ( With NO (or very small/tiny) TEXT / Varcher columns … before anyone can present this(or understand it), they should not complain or even suggest anything … AND do take in consider…

[AaronCake]

To be honest, you might be waiting a long time. I haven’t created a database schema in anywhere except my head and don’t really see the need to put it down in this thread. Primarily because (I hope this does not come through as hostile, I am just lacking a better way to say it) I have nothing to prove. In a way, this is database design 101 and there is no need to prove the assertion that a relational database which eliminates the redundant data and stores data in native data types instead of just VARCHAR and TEXT would be orders of magnitude more efficient. It is is.

Considering how long the database has been an issue, despite database corruption, performance and size threads being a constant in this forum since I began with HA (sometime around version 0.40), fixing the database is of very low priority in development.

[boheme61]

I understand, you have really thought it through, maybe you should have looked at various “Attributes”, tried to understand what those really are, so you knew before you started “thinking” out a solution, and taken in consideration the impact in performance, and additional DB usage use(CPU, RAM) your “solution” would lead to.

@AaronCake

Regarding new integrations with their specific attributes, this is somewhat of a non-problem. Programatically an easy problem to solve. The “attributes” table can simply be kept in memory in whatever the Python equivalent of a collection or dictionary object is. Name-value pairs. When attributes are written to the table linking them to entities, the ID of the attribute is pulled from that collection/dictionary and used based upon the key (the friendly attribute name). Now if a new integration/entity is introduced with a unique attribute, it will not be found in the dictionary/collection. At that point, it is simply inserted into the “attributes” table and the new ID retrieved. Or simply it is written to the database and the entire dictionary/collection is refreshed in a single fast SELECT query. This happens fairly rarely so has no impact upon performance.

This is one of the many standard methods how this is handled. Anyone who has worked with databases will be familiar.

I sincerely doubt a “Dictionary” in another table will solve anything, just make it worse, you will brake a-lot functionality … AND before you commend any further, please go through your “Attributes” , as i recommended you before, and my “key-word” was then “Variables” … ( or maybe i should say “entities” … with state = Boolean, strings(bigger than Varcher) as-well as INT, with multiple “integration-specific” values “unit_of_measurements” Names etc. etc. ) … so every time a sensor update states/events(as now in a single “BLOB”) (open/close), this “dictionary” table(with Rows corresponding to 5-10 times or even more, than entities, if you count device-tracker, etc. etc.) should be updated in all it’s related "Attributes-Rows and corresponding Columns(which might have to be a few TEXT column also)
To be honest, I am “astonished” over your “Solution”

PS: Some people have problems with their DB, others not, for various reasons

[e-raser]

Clear answer: no, backups are not useless (anymore ). Because:

Seems this is working meanwhile. Had to restore a HA backup and database looks fine so far. Details @ Fix corrupted / malformed SQLite database (home-assistant_v2.db) - #23 by e-raser.

[AaronCake]

With recent updates, HA has gone to a relational model for attributes and other parts of the database as was described in this thread by myself and others. The performance improvements and data size reduction are impressive.

[swifty1101 (Jan)]

For me backups are still useless. My HA instance is huge, database file has 6GB, no way to back it up and restore it the convenient way. What a bummer, I will take the long way by manually replacing the db files and hope for reliable backup process soon.