@Argo: I don’t know how much we can do from HA to date; I’ve seen there’s a component for Netatmo and that Netatmo exposes WebAPI to manage the system.
In both solutions (custom Z-Wave and Netatmo) I’d hope to be able to:
set the temperature of each valve from HA or manually from the valve itself (a guest should not access HA)
the valve should be able to call for hot water, through HA (MQTT/Z-Wave/whatever) or directly through the thermostat (proprietary/z-wave/whatever)
(If through HA, I’ll need to turn on the thermostat when a valve set temperature differs from the read value, anyway, with this solution I’d miss the optimization algorithms or have to develop one by my own)
@johnflorin Thank you for Evohome solution, didn’t know about it, and for confirmation on Netatmo too.
I read that the Evohome doesn’t have an extender component, this is my first concern with Netatmo too: I have some far radiator, with walls and floor along the path…
What I can confirm in the case of the Netatmo thermostat is that their proprietary radio between the boiler unit and the sensor/controller works with full signal throughout the length of my house (2 walls, ~15m)…I only have one level though, so no idea how it would work on different floors.
It states to be for floor heating but my radiators use the same valves. Be aware that there are others around, too (especially in older installations).
In my case I simply switch it on (open the valve) through a the sonoff.
I think the price (<20€ with the sonoff and a power cord) is definitely fair compared to proprietary solutions.
Basically, you could build your own controller to provide manual setting of target temperature on the device (e.g. with OLED and tactile switch). You’d probably need something else than a Sonoff though as you might need more GPIOs.
Let me know in case you want to follow up on building a more sophisticated solution!
This is my plan currently also. I just need a way of triggering the boiler when I need it. Once I work that out I will start purchasing, we can do it for around £24 per radiator this way, would still look quite neat, and no batteries to worry about!
I’ve planned on using standard sonoff basic instead and room temp/humidity sensors (xiaomi) to work out the temperature of the room, I have concerns that they won’t update oftem enough for me though (I’ve heard they only update every 20mins)…
The bonus of doing it this way is I plan to make an automation so that if I press the Sonoff button manually, turn on the heating for an hour, but only enable that room (unless I press other rooms also) that way I can still use radiators to dry clothes.
My only sticking point so far is that the wife still wants to be able to control the heating via the thermostat downstairs manually if needed.
So I would need to change my dumb wireless RF thermostat for a smarter (hopefully cheap) wireless thermostat and boiler relay…(that HASS can over-ride if I press the button on the radiators)
To add further confusion, there is also the Drayton Wiser system which is a more affordable version that my Brother in law has. Seems pretty robust for the price of it, although havent tried the component for it obviously as it’s not in my house!
Ok, so far I can identify these solutions; ordered ASC by price they are:
Generic MQTT
Thermostat: none/distributed
Valves: generic thermal actuators + Sonoff TH
Cost avg: ~20€/valve
Pros: no cloud, open protocol, network range extendable
Cons: no manual set from valve, wifi dependent
HA integration: with good configuration, can do pretty anything
Note: no batteries but wired valves (pro/con)
Generic Z-Wave
Thermostat: none/distributed
Valves: any z-wave (note: Danfoss are missing temperature feedback)
Cost avg: 50-80€/valve
Pros: no cloud, manual set from valve, open protocol, network range extendable, no wifi dependent, energy saving (for some brands)
Cons: batteries, good Z-Wave mesh needed, Z-Wave seems to be a PITA
HA integration: with good configuration, can do pretty anything depending on the components brand
Netatmo
Thermostat: proprietary
Valves: proprietary
Cost avg: ~170€ (thermostat) + ~80€/valve
Pros: manual set from valve, no wifi dependent, energy saving, easy setup
Cons: network range not extendable, cloud, brand dependent
HA integration: netatmo2 component seems dead by now, anyway Netatmo API are available
Evohome
Thermostat: proprietary
Valves: proprietary
Cost avg: ~260€ (control unit+relay) + ~70€/valve
Pros: manual set from valve, no wifi dependent, energy saving, easy setup
Cons: network range not extendable, cloud, brand dependent
HA integration: component seems live and working
Solution 1 is not suitable for me due to the wired valves and the lot of components involved: 2 per radiator (valve+sonoff).
I need to manual set directly from the radiator, a good looking appeal (got a wife) and a solid secure valve (got children). Also, an energy-saving feature is a nice-to-have.
Anyway, good to know there are wired valves: didn’t know about them and maybe I’ll need them in a mixed solution for unreachable rooms (as a plan B).
Solution 4 is too expensive to have a valid ROI from this expense (I already have “dumb” thermostatic valves).
Solution 3 is good but seems not well integrated into HA. I’m a developer, but not a Python one, so giving a look at the code would be possible but not really quick. @johnflorin: what if you have two Netatmo valves in the same room? Does the system consider this (room name, valves setpoint…)?
Solution 2 could be my way, I think, also to not have brand dependencies.
But I’ve read a Z-Wave net is sometimes hard to configure.
Can someone confirm Z-Wave difficulties?
Thank you @Coedy, I’ll have a look at Drayton Wiser systems to check if they’re suitable for my country (and easy to repair/replace).
From what I’ve seen the Netatmo UI allows you to set any device to any room, so if you have 2 valves in a room it’s up to you whether you want to group them or have them act independently.
As for Z-Wave, I’m running a 30+ device setup in HA and although there are the occasional hiccups when modifying functionality or adding new devices, it is pretty much rock-solid the rest of the time.
Update: unfortunately, my first choice (Z-Wave Fibaro valves) doesn’t have any boiler control relay.
From what I’ve understood lurking their forum, in some countries, boilers are “always on”, keeping the radiator’s water at a fixed temperature; when a radiator valve is opened, the water temperature drops down and the boiler has to warm it.
Is at this kind of setup that they’re thinking of.
But where I live, it’s not legal to have an always-on boiler: you have to turn it on only on demand depending on internal temperature. Furthermore, my boiler would break down if I’d keep it heating water with all valved closed.
I also cannot simply get the rooms current temperature and confront against the valves set value to control the boiler with a remote relay: the valves have a smart behavior to optimize energy saving, so they could close water flow before reaching the set temperature.
I’ve seen I’m not the only one having this concern.
Hell, if they wouldn’t miss just a stupid valves-controlled relay for the boiler, they could sell a lot more devices in many other countries…
I think Netatmo will be the winner…
EDIT: I forgot to mention that Tado has started implementing a subscription policy.
By now it’s only for new users and for some functions already covered by HA or IFTTT (like geofencing), but this is a scaring move to me…
Yesterday I found a really good offer for a Tado thermostat and ordered it.
Valves has temperature, humidity and light sensors.
I found Netatmo has a really bad customer post-selling support but I’d have bought if I hadn’t found this offer.
Also, Netatmo doesn’t support OpenTherm.
Anyway, I’d like to keep checking other solutions.
I like the idea of Z-Wave valves (and I really like Fibaro valves), but the main problem is that you’d lose the ability to adapt heating usage on your specific house.
You should implement a smart stateful algorithm that uses previous “heating sessions” to adapt to the next one (maybe it would be a good component for HA, but I can only develop in C dialects).
Fibaro valves already implement this logic but they don’t tell you when they’re closing, nor how much they’re opened, and you cannot leave an old boiler turned on with all valves closed.
Maybe if lots of people post on Fibaro forum…
(there are already requests to have a boiler-control feature)
I thought Esphomelib was useful just to create firmware for ESP-based boards.
Anyway, Python is not a difficult language to learn.
About Tado/Netatmo solutions, you’re right.
But with Z-Wave custom solution you have to rely on your HA server, while with Tado/Netatmo solutions you have to rely on your ISP.
(The home router is always involved, thus I don’t take it into account)
TBH, I rely much more on my ISP than on my Raspberry setup… but this is just a matter of choice.
For custom valves, we have to implement some sort of fallback solution for when the HA server is down, to not have a freezing or a burning house…
TBH, I totally agree with you, about HA vs ISP stability.
Thats way, I’m trying to find some independent thermostat-like solution, but with better customization, which support any external sensors/actuators/trvs, related only to external voltage.
In my opinion, esphomelib is totally independent solution, and fit to my requirements much better.
In case, you use star topology (radiators, and UFH), you can use wired actuators in the center + any temperature/humidity sensor in each room, but if you would like use Z-Wave trvs, you have to connect zwave stick to esp somehow. There are a lot of staff there… (spi/usb?)
Anyway, my house has been just built, and I will try to do my best, to cover all my requirements, to make home more comfortable safe and economical
Nice thread! I was wondering if you could elaborate on your setups with regards to the thermostat valves. I am considering to add at least one thermo valve to my radiator in the bath room so that the missis has a warm bathroom and towel in the winter.
I almost went for the TADO but stepped on the brakes with that when I read that those work through their cloud solution. Something i’d like to avoid.
Any suggestion as to a good system which runs with HA?
Does oi all mean that all heating system controllers (aka hubs) are cloud based? Isn’t there any non-cloud based heating central unit which allows to control TRVs configured in zones as well as optimize a boiler usage? All we can do is connecting TRVs to HA and automate them on our own?
Now I’ve been using Tado for a while and I can say I’m happy with it.
When there’s no connectivity, the house is heated and I can control the temperature in each room manually from the valves.
The valves are always able to connect to the thermostat that controls the boiler and the usage is optimized.
Cloud connection is mandatory just for remote control (native app or HA).
Hi,
i am trying to solve similar issue with the luck for a long time. I can find any company who is able to design / help here.
I have a flat with electrical heater (water is boiled by electricity) then its pushed to radiators with standard valves. The heater is connected can be power on off via relay.
So I was thinking to have a central unit that can manage whole logic / AI / etc and power on/off remote relay and then local thermostats per each room or remote valves.
Still struggling if such a case is doable and if any system can manage that? Any ideas / help?
No, as far as I know.
I’m not paying anything to control my heater, it can set power from 0% to 100% depending on the needs of the various valves and the “bath water” temperature. Nothing more, since my heater is not OpenTherm compliant, but it’s perfect for me.
The only fee is for automatic features (eg. auto turn off when nobody’s home or when a window is detected open) but I avoid yearly subscription and pay just during winter months.
(And anyway I could create an automation for this stuff but I don’t have time in this period).