The future of YAML

[danielo515 (Daniel Rodríguez Rivero)]

@danielperna84

more accessible and easy to use for non-pro-users

Would you mind explaining what is a non-pro user? An user that is interested on home automation, that is able to setup a server or raspberry pi, that is able to make informed decisions about what hardware can integrate with their smart home solution but that gets confused because of YAML?

Not to mention that, of course, a non-standard unilaterally decided UI is way more intuitive for everyone despite their background. Do you know all the things involved on an UI? User expectations, accessibility, responsiveness, user experience, being used to other different UIs, discoverability…

[danielo515 (Daniel Rodríguez Rivero)]

@SeanM

You don’t have to chuck comments all over the place though. Where you used to put your integration config, you’d simply replace it with something like this (most likely saving lines in fact):

And update it on every change of the UI. Please don’t ty to sell an ugly workaround as a better feature.

[ReneTode]

@Silicon_Avatar

I specifically said user configuration files. Just like the user shouldn’t edit the .storage config files because their used and edited by the system only, the system shouldn’t edit the configuration.yaml file because it’s used and edited by the user.

and thats what this discussion all comes down to.
i dont want a system that has control over configuration that i dont control.
i want full control all configuration, and not through a GUI, because i cant rearrange that to my wishes.

[danielo515 (Daniel Rodríguez Rivero)]

To all of those trying to reduce this to the simplistic scenario of:
angry nerd users against well intention devs that give their free time
please stop.
This is not an attack against a group of people, this is people not being ok about a decision they were not part of.
On both sides of the decision there are users and devs. Or do you think that all HA users are just users? Why do you think people contribute to a project? Because they use it, they find it useful and want to make it better.
So please stop telling to people that has already contributed to the project to go away and fork the project. Specially when all this comes from users that has taken advantage of both, devs work and other’s users sharing their knowledge and time to help them. I understand that you feel guilty and want to support the project for all what you taken from it, but all the people who has contributed to make it better and bigger (and this last part is key, please re-read it) has the right to express their opinion.

Let’s not try to use empty arguments or demagogy.

[anon3881519]

@francisp

Well, I try to get as much of them out of yaml. It sometimes needs some json crafting to create discovery messages, but it is doable.

Is that easier? I don’t think so. Plus discovered MQTT devices tend to disappear and reappear during reboots randomly. No thanks.

[mig2008pt (Miguel)]

People want things free and even complain about them, go figure it…
I’m a user, not a programer, jumped to the HA wagon and had to learn many many thing to make it work, linux, command lines, YAML, doing many copy and paste, and I loved it, had and still have a great journey with it.
It is understandable the move away from yaml in the integrations, I enjoyed implementing them in yaml in the configuration file, but had to restart HA every time I change something, now is much easier, love the new helpers ui implementation, when I need one, they are just couple clicks away, without restarting!
Even thou, YAML is very important for me, it is the only way for making my automations, scripts and Lovelace dashboard. The Lovelace UI builder is nice, but if you use more cards that the UI provide and want to customized de dashboard a lot it become very difficult, so YAML is better. the same for automation and scripts.
The ADR-0010 seems good to me as an user, YAML will be always an option for the things that really need it, and UI configuration for what is not needed, like integrations, which are one time configuration and even better not to be needed the HA´s restart.
The reload services for the YAML files (scripts, automations, customization, etc.) are great and should be expanded for every part possible to eliminate any need of restarting beyond updating HA.
The shareability of the users “configurations” should be maintained, I learnt a lot looking in others configs, I still do, and I don’t miss anything with the changes being made, I only look for how to do scripts, automations, templates, styling, etc. The more techy things, the integrations, and onboarding things are equal for everyone, are documented, so there is no need for be looking in another´s configs.
In the end, If you don’t like how HA works search for something else, and if use it, support it.

[firstof9]

@snicker

I still see YAML having value for scripts, automations, etc, but even that may go away eventually as more functionality is built into the editors in the UI.

The only way I’d foresee this working is if there was a “RAW” editor like the Lovelace UI editor has because I actually loath the UI interface for doing automations.

[anon3881519]

Then why is it available to the user? You can’t have it both ways. This is where the credibility comments are coming from.

I have had to edit the json files to purge defunct devices from the system on several instances because leaving them produced errors. If I hadn’t been able to do that, I would have had to start over.

[firstof9]

So maybe a solution to all the whining would be something similar to the way you can configure lovelace via yaml/storage methods? eh?

[danielo515 (Daniel Rodríguez Rivero)]

@mig2008pt

In the end, If you don’t like how HA works search for something else, and if use it, support it.

This is unacceptable on a community driven project. Many people that are giving their opinions here had contributed a lot. They spent countless hours and you are just asking them to throw that away and look for something else? That’s easy to say from the point of view of someone that hasn’t invested in the project at all, and you can move to anything else like any other product you consume. But don’t tell people that worked on home assistant what they should do. You have your opinion, let others do the same

[mig2008pt (Miguel)]

When something doesn’t work or not as it should be, you should file an issue and the devs will try to fix it, change what is not working well ou rework it. complain about it doesn’t fix anything, HA is a working progress with the changes and issues that it imply.

[msniper (Richard)]

Totally agree with every sentence and sentiment!

[anon3881519]

@mig2008pt

When something doesn’t work or not as it should be, you should file an issue and the devs will try to fix it

I do and I did. This was still the solution while I waited. Best I know, I’d still be waiting.

Look, I am totally in favor of making configuration changes available in the UI. Given time, the UI gives a more robust method of ensuring that errors don’t occur. However, pretending that users should never edit the “hidden” config files is equally just absurd. Especially in beta software.

[danielo515 (Daniel Rodríguez Rivero)]

I just want to make sure that everybody understands that:

1. Nobody is against a better UI or being able to configure through the UI
2. It is perfectly doable to have configuration through the UI baked by YAML
3. Not requiring to reload HASS has nothing to do with YAML

So don’t use those arguments anymore, that makes no sense.
People is complaining about taking control away from the end user, and the only reason any user may agree with that is they don’t understand what does it mean.

[mig2008pt (Miguel)]

If you are part of the devs, I thank you for being part of this project I enjoy so much. internal politics inside the project is no my concern, of course the more pleople involved, the more it grows the more opinions, points of views contradicting will be, and you inside should find common ground and get along. I’m a simply user, don’t know how to program, would be nice be part of the project like you.
My comment is more redirected to user like me, not the devs.
It’s my point of view, this is a public forum, so, I think internal discussions should keep internal only so you don’t get simple users giving their opinion.
Keep the good work and get along guys.

[frenck (Franck Nijhof)]

He isn’t.

I like how a lot of people have answers but never contributed any code or the necessary architectural proposals to address the issues raised.

Personally, makes me smile a bit.

…/Frenck

[anon3881519]

@frenck

I like how a lot of people have answers but never contributed any code or the necessary architectural proposals to address the issues raised.

Hold up, are you saying that only devs contribute to this project?

[mig2008pt (Miguel)]

User are free to do what they want, I do it, I break things and I try to fix them, sometimes breaking things is the only way you learn something new. Sometimes it drives me crazy, sometimes is enjoyable. Like fire, you have to learn not to touch it =)

[tom_l]

I don’t have answers because I’m not a dev. I do contribute to maintaining the docs when I can though. And I do have opinions as a user.

[frenck (Franck Nijhof)]

@anon3881519

Hold up, are you saying that only devs contribute to this project?

No that is not what I said, I was talking about technical solutions to an architectural design problem in our code base. It seems a lot of answers there from people that don’t know the system on that level.

So I was talking about architectural/code contributions specifically. I’m well aware there are many more ways to contribute to the project (being one myself).

However, saying we are full of *** while not being involved in that specific part, is harsh and unfair. I’m sure it would be applauded to see a proper solution for anyone. This was said during the State of the Union as well. I would be happy to see the solution and code to the propositions made by some.

EDIT: I have no problem with people with opinions. I’m strongly opinionated myself in general. But there is a difference between sharing an opinion or telling people are wrong.