I don’t have answers because I’m not a dev. I do contribute to maintaining the docs when I can though. And I do have opinions as a user.
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No that is not what I said, I was talking about technical solutions to an architectural design problem in our code base. It seems a lot of answers there from people that don’t know the system on that level.
So I was talking about architectural/code contributions specifically. I’m well aware there are many more ways to contribute to the project (being one myself).
However, saying we are full of *** while not being involved in that specific part, is harsh and unfair. I’m sure it would be applauded to see a proper solution for anyone. This was said during the State of the Union as well. I would be happy to see the solution and code to the propositions made by some.
EDIT: I have no problem with people with opinions. I’m strongly opinionated myself in general. But there is a difference between sharing an opinion or telling people are wrong.
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Not if you read the statement accurately. I feel like you may skipped over some words in your head.
Please re-read it slowly because that isn’t all what Frenck said.
i have to say… for me as a person that used home-assistant not that much the changes are very confusing… but the changes are not the problem… the issues are connected to a lot of the obsolete informations now 
. a lot documentation is not in a good state and it drives me crazy because its really hard to find the right informations.
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Sorry for the confusion, but I am not a developer of the project. I’m a user, and I probably don’t have the right to say where the project should go. My point is that many people that are not part of the core team had contributed to it, and hence they have the right to give their opinion.
This is not a comercial product, it’s an open source project and discussions and decisions doesn’t have to be hidden away like you are suggesting. If you don’t like discussions like this is totally understanable, but don’t try to keep others away from it, that was my point.
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This would be pretty funny if it had been posted 14 days ago.
Alright, configuring by UI can be nice for new users. It’s pretty universally a nightmare for folks once they know what they’re doing, including regular users. This is like modeling after Windows95 for servers. Watching dozens of half-baked YouTube videos trying to show what to click on, or explaining how to deal with wonkiness in a UI where you can’t see the underlying data, is not fun for anyone.
The real problem though is when it can’t be configured by configuration file, can’t be easily shared, can’t be version controlled with annotations, etc. It sounds like if UI is the new passion for the controlling parties, then the need is apparent that the hidden storage needs to be non-hidden, more easily human-readable and modifiable. There’s nothing wrong with having a UI, but it is a steep downhill when it means operating the software becomes less transparent, less shareable and less maintainable.
In this half-hidden, half-readable form it’s disappointing to hear and makes it hard to recommend to new users. Yes, they can get their initial devices online more easily, but it’s pretty much a headache to help them with anything beyond that point. Support by “I clicked this and that then this and that and it says OK” or “I clicked some things and I’m not sure what it was before but now everything is gone” etc is not something I’d want to inflict on experienced people, let alone new users.
Edit: To be fair, some of my concern is that it’s been a slippery slope of “YAML will be there” reassurances as we see it continually removed. These two categories of integrations being UI only are the least damaging, certainly, but it doesn’t feel very assuring to hear it’ll be limited to those - we’ve heard these sorts of words before. Regardless, shareable, annotatable, version-controllable and human-friendly configs will always be more maintainable and supportable than UIs. UIs are great for initial setup - hence the appeal of using them for these integrations - but they’re still poor interfaces for maintaining them.
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I agree. However, it feels like opinions of non-devs are sidelined. I don’t have a stake in this. I’ve always maintained that as long as HA’s goals and mine continue to coincide, I’m here. Plus, admittedly, I’m not much of a contributor on this forum. I do promote the project locally and am developing devices that can be used with the project.
All of this is to say, please don’t assume that making the project more accessible to the masses means needing to remove functionality and readability for those who can do more. I think that is what is at the heart of all of this discussion here. It appears that this is the path the admins are going and the roll-back language used in the past doesn’t help.
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No, he is saying that people should not give technical opinions if they are not part of the dev team. Also he was quite ironic and a bit condescendingly, but that is understandable given he doesn’t know me and he only saw me complaining. But I don’t know if that I could even do the effort he is suggesting that I should be doing, in case he is talking about my comments of course.
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Ironic, yes, absolutely.
Condescendingly, not my intention. So if it came across like that, I’m sorry.
That is not what I said either. I said it was not backed by anything. I’m, actually, really looking forward to your solution. As you stated:
It is perfectly doable to have configuration through the UI baked by YAML
So, that indicates you have the solution. I’m honestly interested in how it would look.
…/Frenck
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Well, If you point me to where the discussion about why it was not possible I will read it and try to find a possible solution or gave up and accept that was no other solution. What I can not do is read the entire project codebase, understand it and come to a solution from in a reasonable amount of time.
Anyone who knows Frenck knows that while he may be blunt at times, he’s never intentionally condescending. In fact, quite the opposite.
Can I remind people to try to remember that textual replies lend themselves to being misinterpreted by the very nature that most people read internally in their own voice, which may or may not be colored by any prejudices or preconceptions they bring with them.
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People have already been doing this for years. It wasn’t an argument, so yeah, probably bland. As for not having the time to do that, I’m not taking the bait there. 
stupid remark.
a lot of dissatisfied people are those wo did contribute (some a lot, some a bit less, some by supporting, some by programming) if yu want to piss of people then just go ahead, but this is plain disrespectfull.
and sorry, but after such a remark i usealy stop reading what is more written in that posting.
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What bait? You are proposing a solution, true, but a solution to a problem that does not exist with the current implementation. I appreciate you pointing out to a solution, but it is not better than what it is now which doesn’t take any extra time. If you were not arguing that, then my bad
Well, that’s what I wrote a bit. But you’re right, should not try to extract tone from a textual answer
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Well, I read the entire post and I don’t think he meant to be disrespectful. I think it is more he/she didn’t understand what the point of the discussion is.
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The architecture repository contains multiple discussions on the subject.
Ok, well, the core code is enough.
However, thank you for admitting you don’t have a solution and did not invest time in this yet, while you said those arguments should not be used and made no sense.
That was actually part of the point I tried to make. Please don’t take this offensive, but people might read those comments and think you are right, while it was not backed.
This does not help any discussion, it only throws more gasoline on, the pretty, fired up discussion. I don’t see why that is needed.
Thanks.
…/Frenck
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do you really think that if 1 person show how its possible in code to do something that is the opposite from the set course, that he will be heard?
no, he will be told: we have set another course, so allthough your code is nice, we wont use it.
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Yes. We had many great additions from first time code contributors that changed the project forever.
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thats true, but not what i said.
i was talking about changes that make a complete course change. and the course hasnt been changed for years.
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