I did do a separate WTH for TTS ability to speak entity states and values from the gui instead of depending on templating. Nobody has read it.
Sure, the integration should provide it out of the box. The goal would not be to simplify templates but to make them unnecessary for this use case, but there are a lot of such cases and time is limited.
There was a lengthy and heated discussion in this WTH about why a lot of people here think this is an important technical distinction even though from an non-techie users perspective it makes no sense
This thread has shown exactly why it makes sense - there are complaints about nonuniform UI between Zwave and Z2A addons and the rest of Home Assistant, which of course cannot be solved by HA because they are not internal applications. Thereâs definitely improvements to be made in how this is explained, but saying that theyâre all basically the same is just going to lead to more confusion.
Or itâs a technical product, like, say, a PCB layout application. Can someone with no electrical engineering rightfully demand to be able to lay out a PCB with zero understanding of track widths, layers, etc.?
Itâs not that hard to understand. Do you expect Windows to come with every application you need?
Many users donât want to read or learn either. Did the first general users of computer had to learn new things to deal with a new interface? They sure did.
What should they have done? The thread you linked explains this.
If HA controlled a whole ecosystem in the same way say Apple does, then perhaps you can make things super easy, but HA is a middleman. You necessarily will have to understand a few things. You cannot abstract everything away (not without some simplification and some loss of functionality).
You donât need to be a developer.
Again how should you write so that HA knows you mean âget the state of this entityâ and not speak out loud âsensor.wind_directionâ and how should you write to get the wind direction?
You always have to differentiate between text and programming text what ever the language is. Since we still only use the same keyboard then we must somehow tell the program running/reading what is what.
And seriously is it really that hard to understand what {{ states('sensor.wind_direction') }}
is or how to change it to something else?
Looking at developer tools you see a few examples and clicking on the links lead you to the documentations.
Iâm not offering arguments. Iâm simply explaining how things currently work with the questions/statements you directed to me. Sorry if thatâs not clear.
Lol. Yes, it is! Soso much.
This is exactly the âjust do it in YAMLâ mentality that makes HA inacessible!
If you dont know coding, how would you know what âstatesâ is and why & what all these funny brackets and punctuation should be and how you could change that to something else? And to even be able to do that you first have to install File Editor and find out what a config file is and where & in what indentation structure a template is built.
And btw. for this example its not just changing (or rather adding, because itâs not there to begin with) this:
{{ states('sensor.wind_direction') }}
âŚit is this completely illegible heap of symbols:
template:
- sensor:
- name: "Wind Direction TXT"
unique_id: wind_direction_txt
availability: "{{ has_value('sensor.ecowitt_wind_direction') }}"
state: >-
{% set dir = states('sensor.ecowitt_wind_direction') | int(0) %}
{% set navDir = [ 'N', 'NNE', 'NE', 'ENE', 'E', 'ESE', 'SE', 'SSE', 'S', 'SSW', 'SW', 'WSW', 'W', 'WNW', 'NW', 'NNW', 'N' ] %}
{{ navDir[ (dir/22.5) | int(0) ] }}
All this is SO INSANELY FAR outside of what one can expect from a normal user, itâs funny to me that anyone would not see that.
@parautenbach posted this a a few post up and i think it really is susch a good explanation of what all this is about:
Average Familiarity
How could anyone consider themselves a well-rounded adult without a basic understanding of silicate geochemistry? Silicates are everywhere! Itâs hard to throw a rock without throwing one!
Then HA is not for you.
Seriously.
Seriously? This again?
There is an official WTH section where people are encuraged to bring up things that donât make sense to them so they can be improved - but when they do, this is the answer they get.
And people are seriously wondering why newcomers get frustrated.
Iâd say the WTH section is not for youâŚ
If you donât understand that simple then it really isnât for you.
Why do everyone think everything is for everyone.
If itâs not for you then it isnât.
I know soccer isnât for me and if someone says so then I donât start crying and say itâs the second time someone said so.
I know Iâm not smart enough to be a rocket scientist either.
So just know your limits
I think one can perfectly use and set up HA for a lot of things without ever understanding that. First, itâs really not needed for a lot of basic things. Second, for more advanced things itâs often a matter of copy pasting code shared by someone else.
I guess the problem for some people is the sheer breadth of what HA makes possible, compared to major commercial competition. It feels like you can do everything in HA, and thatâs true, but not everything is easy to achieve.
Ok, cool. Imma tap out at this point, no point in wasting anymore time on this thread.
The best analogy I can come up with is Excel: You can do many things out of the box, but for advanced things youâll need to learn macros and functions â and even some scripting.
This might be too philosophical for many, but keep in mind that the more you standardise a solution, the more watered down it becomes. To do the more advanced things, you add new building blocks, but now you just sit with a new language (in a very general sense) and nomenclature to learn. Thereâs no ideal abstraction at the top. Thereâs no top.
Iâll say again that the input method (UX/UI) is one thing, and yes, there the tooling can (and Iâm sure will be) built out more, but the analytical thinking needed to solve some very specific and custom problems will remain a lot of work â and not everybody has developed that ability. Many people cannot describe in normal language what they want. Some can, but donât know how to translate it and Iâd argue that those that can solve the problem with pen and paper will be able to learn the technical aspects to do it.
Actually itâs HA owners recently to make HA more accessible.
Plz stop discouraging people from using HA or from giving ideas about what should be improved. Itâs not the point of WTH. Otherwise the only correct reaction on any WTH would be âitâs open source , program it yourselfâ
This falls under the be careful what you wish for section to me. New users often show up, demand that Home Assistant be made easier, complain that the learning curve is to steep, the documentation is too confusing, YAML is too hard, etc. There may be some truth to all of those, what they forget is why they were drawn to HA in the first place, the alternatives are too limiting.
The power of HA comes at the cost of complexity, if it focuses only on simplifying the user experience, that will result in less functionality, and less developer interest. Developers, by human nature, focus on what interests them, and the majority are interested in increasing base functionality and fixing problems that affect them. Thatâs likely not UI issues, since they are unlikely to be seen as an issue to a dev in the first place.
All Iâm really saying is that there are already significant barriers to getting changes into HA, letâs not add more in a pursuit of enforcing simplicity.
@ToonK: I couldnât agree more with your initial post!
That said, Iâm honestly baffled that so many Nabu Casa staff, including site admins, expresses their opinion against the posts and seems to prefer âstatus quo,â acting like everythingâs fine and framing it as âyouâre just a clueless user who doesnât get how HA works.â
If youâre part of the Nabu Casa staff, I think you should stay neutral in these cases, IMO
Someone mentioned theyâve brought in more people to address the UI/UX issues, but if itâs Nabu Casa leading that effort, it risks being a case of the blind leading the blind. They really need to involve people who arenât already steeped in the current culture, IMHO.
No, because Windows is an OS. But lot of software packages bundles Java, getting rid of this dependency during installationâŚ. if you love analogies.
No it isnât.
But people are basically âless physically motivatedâ so they donât want to put any effort at all into figuring it out. Even if in the end they would benefit from the knowledge they gained.
What people are asking for is they want to do advanced stuff but they donât want to learn to do it. they want someone else to do it for them.
the easy stuff actually is easy. you can do easy stuff and even a lot of moderate stuff in the UI editor (but why would you?). If thatâs all you want to do then fine use the UI editor. But you canât complain that to do advanced stuff you need to have advanced knowledge.
Then donât use the stuff that needs those symbols. Limit yourself to the easy stuff.
Or when you get frustrated by not being able to do the advanced stuff (you know itâs called âadvancedâ for a reason right?) then take the extra time to learn the advanced stuff.
An analogy would be that a lot of people can do basic auto maintenance but if you want to rebuild an engine then youâre going to need to learn a lot more stuff.
This thinking is like asking a car manufacturer to make it easy to rebuild an engine because learning the skills needed to do it is too hard for people who usually just want to be able to put gas in the tank.
Itâs not expected from a normal user. Itâs expected from an advanced user.
What I hear in many of these same types of threads is âI came from <insert some other automation platform>
because it was too limited and I like what HA can do. But HA is too hard because it can do more than <insert some other automation platform>
so please make it more like <insert some other automation platform>
.â
Iâve said this in many places over the years:
the options are âeasyâ, âpowerfulâ and âfreeâ. But you can generally only have two of those at a time.
if itâs easy and free then you canât do much with it.
if itâs free and powerful itâs not going to likely be easy.
if itâs easy and powerful then youâre going to have to pay someone for that development time
And I really donât think Nabu Casa staff, including site admins, should be sharing their opinions in the WTH section. Their focus should be on helping and trying to get to the core of what the writer is trying to say, IMHO.
So basically what you are saying is; âdeal with it, you canât have it allâ
Which in my opinion is the exact same as the ignorant 'So then HA is not for you!".
If you are not able to constructively add anything to the conversation, especially in a WTH thread that is supposed to be a place to share your experience with HA, then you were not able to comprehend itâs intent, and in that case please refrain from replyingâŚ