Connection problems with ZHA

Configuration Zigbee
21

Same problem here. My Zigbee devices started to fail randomly after updating to HA OS 13.1. Some work badly. Others don’t work at all. I have returned to HA OS 12.4 and everything has worked properly again. I’m getting more and more afraid to update HA OS. I always have problems…

22

I know added three Sonoff Dongles as router.
This makes it way better.
But firmware updateing my 3rd reallity plugs needs several attempts as it stops sometimes (and continues where it stopped before, after klicking update again).
So for me (but Im really a zigbee noob) this looks like interefereance problems (what I didnt believe in, so far).

Anyway. Because my NUC only got USB3 ports, I got the advice here to use an powered USB 2 hub.
So far Im using an USB2 extension cable. So the Coordinator is about 2.5 - 3m away from my home assistant.
I dont really understand, what makes the difference between using a hub (and my extension cable) instead of using the extension only.

Can some1 explain this to me?

1 Like
23

If you use the extension only the bus is ‘running’ at usb3 bus speed (near 3ghz,and interferes horribly with especially zigbee and Thread radios but also ZWave (the stick itself hates it) and in some cases Bluetooth.(same rf spectrum.)

But. A usb Hub is its. Own electrical device and maintains a USB2 bus speed which does NOT interfere with the sticks. And acts as a… Buffer? (not exactly - but close enough to understand what’s happening)

So with the cable alone you are still on a. Usb3 bus speed and therfore the wire itself is still carrying the interfering signal but - with the hub it cranks that down which changes the speed to get out of that 3ghz zone.

Make sense?

24

Thanks for your replay. But Im not sure if I got it correct.
If I use the USB2 cable there is still inteference at the USB3 port of my NUC.
And this intefererance goes throuhg my USB2 cable and harms the stick at the end of it.

If I use a hub there is still inteferance at the USB port of my NUC, but no inteferance inside the cable? And the USB3 ports inteferance isnt that problem if the hub is far enough away.
And this only applies if I use a hub with its own power supply.
Something like this?

And if Im correct isnt this hub a must have (if there are only USB3 ports available) - even if everything would be working fine?
Because without having it, its only a question of time until something wents wrong?

25

The interference goes all the way to the input port of the hub. There is nothing inherent in your ‘usb2’ cable ‘blocking’ the USB3 bus oscillation. USB2 cables CAN absolutely carry USB3 signals they just aren’t tuned and optimized for it. That’s exactly WHY the hub matters and while we can’t guarantee a problem. Nobody will guarantee you WON’T have an issue without it.

26

Thank you very much man!
The hub is ordered.

And my apologiezes to @Hedda
You pointed out he importancie of this hub - more than once - and I (more or less) ignored your advice, because I (oviously) absolutely underestimadet this topic.

2 Likes
27

No worries… USB3 interference is a very real problem…

Everyone setting up HA should watch this video before they start. Yes it’s that stark. A few cm is all it takes to wipe out comms.

28

After watching this video, which was posted here already, i thought:
Hey. The distance from my skyconnect to USB3 port is much more than in this video, so I didnt even spend a second on thoughts about interferance.

But now I think, I really should have started my “zigbee improvals” with the USB2 hub.
(As @Hedda pointed out in his first post here. So apologizes again bro!)
Im pretty sure there is no need to have the 3 Sonoff repeater dongles in my mesh, if maybe just interference is my problem (what it looks like, after your explanations).

But anyway. You cant have enough (good) routers Ive learned.
And these dongles really add a lot of green lines in my mesh)
So the only bad thing are the 100€ for the 4 dongles, plugs, and USB cables Ive spend.

In germany we say, who doesnt listen, needs to pay.

1 Like
29

Having a few dedicated Zigbee Router devices will make a huge difference when just getting started with Zigbee and you have not yet have added many non-dedicated Zigbee Router devices, but those dedicated Zigbee Router devices might be ok to remove if and when you added many other non-dedicated Zigbee Router devices that make up the difference. Regardless, you can never have enough Zigbee Router devices. Again that is also covered in my guide → Zigbee networks: how to guide for avoiding interference + optimize using Zigbee Router devices (repeaters/extenders) to get a stable mesh network with best possible range and coverage

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30

I got my USB2 hub (this one here: Amazon.de)

I turned off my HomeAssistant. Connected the hub where the Skyconnect was and plugged the skyconnect - with its extension cable - inside the hub.
The newly added USB2 hub is on the left side of my homeassistant, the skyconnect is on the right.
So I didnt change the distance from HomeAssistant to zigbee coordinator. (its about 2m).

But it didnt change anything.
Now I followed all the tipps in the guide and I really have no idea what to try next.
Any tipps?

31

I really wonder if its time to try z2m?

32

Have you tried changing to a different Zigbee channel after checking WiFi channels neighbor uses?

And did you try downgrading the firmware to latest 7.1.x.x or 7.3.x.x (as at least the 7.2.0.0 was known to be unstable, and the 7.4.x.x versions are still cutting-edge so not proven yet if stable enough for production).

FYI, the ZHA documentation has not been updated but it is now possible to change Zigbee channel (radio frequency range) from the ZHA UI/GUI interface and usually you will only need to re-pair sleepy devices (meaning normally just battery-powered devices and mains-powered products that are not Zigbee Router devices such as those that do not have neutral connected).

Important though is to first read and understand this article on (that was linked in the guide) as it covers what you should consider before changing the Zigbee channel:

PS: There is some more info on that ZHA UI interface option (not documented in ZHA docs) here :

33

Argh
I got your first post 18d ago wrong. And downgraded my stick to version 7.2.0.0.
This was probably the worste firmware to chose :o)

But Im a bit confused now.
If I open the github respository (silabs-firmware/EmberZNet at main · NabuCasa/silabs-firmware · GitHub) there is version 7.1.0.0.
As you said Í should downgrade to the latest 7.1.x.x. version I looked inside the archive and found 7.1.3.0 in the archive.
Putting something inside the archive looks like sayin “its there, but better dont use”.
Which version you recommend?
Edit: as the flashing website tells me, that there is nothing wrong with the firmware the stick was shipped with - Im going for 7.1.0.0.
This should be better than what I have, and flashing to another version (if you recommend anything else) isnt that hard.

edit: I know my zigbee is running on channel 11. Thats all I know.
If the firmware downgrade doesnt change anything, ill take a look at the channels (and try to understand whats happening there)

34

That is how intepret it too, if it is in archive then it is not recommended, (so my guess is that they have first had that under the beta directory but then it was proven not to be as stable as older version so they moved it to archive instead).

I also suggest that you go with the 7.1.0.0 version for now, (though you can keep an eye on the beta directory too as expect that will probably see that a newer 7.3.x.x will become new stable sooner rather than later)

But if you do want to experiment with later version today then check out thee unofficial (NCP) community builds by darkxst that are very popular among testers and early adopters → silabs-firmware-builder/firmware_builds/skyconnect at main · darkxst/silabs-firmware-builder · GitHub

So you are saying that you did not read the guide and are not followng the best practice tips there :stuck_out_tongue:

At the very least read this → ZigBee and Wi-Fi Coexistence | MetaGeek

Can you at least check your own WiFi-router or WiFi access-point(s) what WiFi channel(s) are using? While logged into it you should make sure it is set to a static channel and not to auto so it won’t change.

Preferably also install a free WiFi-survey/scanner app (like WiFiman by Ubiquiti) on an Android-based phone or tablet and have it quickly analyze what WiFi channel(s) your neighbors are using and what strength they are so you with that knowledge can make a choice to avoid those too if their signals are strong.

Zigbee and Wi-Fi channel numbers may seem similar but they are not. So if you are for example are using Zigbee channel 11 as you said then you and your neighbors should preferably not be using the overlapping WiFi channel 1 (which is the most commonly used WiFi channel and hence it is generally a bad idea to use Zigbee channel 11 to 14.

The general best practice is to use Zigbee channel 15, 20, or 25 (if you only have newer Zigbee 3.0 devices then Zigbee channel 26 is an option but should be avoided if have any older Zigbee devices).

If you are using Zigbee channel 15, 20, or 25 then you want to lock down your WiFi to it is set to static channel (not auto) and only using WiFi channels 1, 6, or 11 as you get the least overlap with Zigbee.

If possible talk to your neibors to lock down their WiFi to static as well (also using WiFi channels 1, 6, or 11 but not the same WiFi channel as you are using).

Personally I will not be help you anymore here until you actually done your best to follow my guide:

I mean, why should we spoonfeed you here a trickle at a time when you can not be bothered to read and try your best to take action in following those best practice tips to help yourself. Help us help you!

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35

Thanks again cor your help!

But I hardly need to contradict this:

I read ALL the links, some of them more than once to understand whats going there.
And I did ALL mentioned there (except the channel thing, and I switched to false firmware, because I got it wrong).
And furthermore I posted what Ive done, in the order I did it, because I didnt want to change everything at once to maybe see where the problem was.

So Im really really lucky to have some1 like you - and all the others here ofcourse helping me here.
And if you got the impression im not reading, or not following your suggestions youre defenitely wrong!

But again, changing all in one, wont make me find the issue.

36

So. I took an intense look at the channels thing.
I read the guides more times, but please bear with me - Im having some problems understanding it.
At the end of this gude ZigBee and Wi-Fi Coexistence | MetaGeek there is a “Zigbee Wifi Chart”.
If I get it correct, its just essential to use WIFI channels and zigbee channels that dont overlap.
So using Zigbee 11 and Wifi 1 is a bad idea, because they are in the same blue area.
Maybe Wifi 1 and Zigbee 21 is a good idea, because they dont overlapp?
And ofcourse dont miss your neighbours Wigi channel.
Is this the conclusion of this guide?

So the Wifiman apps tells me its using Wifi channels 100,60 and 52. But in my FritsBox its on Autochannel, so this value isnt worth anything.
I find one neighbours WLAN (Fritz Box 7490) on channel 6.
In my Fritz box (with Channel auto settings) it tells me Im using channel 6 on 2,4ghz and channels 100, 52 and 36 on 5ghz.
I think 5ghz WLAN isnt of interest (as it shouldnt interfere with 2,4ghz zigbee).

So if you say Zigbee 15,20 or 25 is best practise Ill choose Channel 25.
Because channel 15 and 20 do a bit overlapp with my neighbours WIFI channel 6.
(and there are only companies around here - chances to make them change their channel are very small).
In addition to this I would change my Wifi channel from Auto to channel 6.
But a question here.

There is no overlapping with zigbee channel 25 and Wifi channel 6. (i think)
Why should I use Wifi 1,5 or 11 only?

37

That was a typo-o on my part, I meant that you should aim to only use WiFi channels 1, 6, and/or 11.

Using Zigbee channel 25 with WiFi channel 6 is a good idea (as long as lock down that WiFi channel).

Another good alternative is to use Zigbee channel 15 with WiFi channel 11.

For why those WiFi channels see this video → https://youtu.be/49JBYSv3Nig?si=dPafqszjQAZP7rgN

As explained in that video it is best to also move as many WiFi devices to 5GHz bands as possible.

Again also check what WiFi channels your closest neighbors are using and how stong signal they have.

The goal of following best practice tips is to first try eliminate all common and probable root causes of problems before you begin to look for unusual and improbable root causes. The point I was trying to make is that it is not worth the effort to try to dig deeper and try to troubleshoot a problem that might simply be caused by you not following all the best practice tips.

Please understand that it can be hard to impossible to troubleshoot further to try to find possible and less probable root causes if your current environment has radio noise and is unstable because you are not already following all existing best practice tips recommendations. Nothing good can come of that and at best that will only make troubleshooting harder, and it will for sure cause unnecessary frustration along the way regardless of how we continue here.

Keep in mind that there are an estimated 200,000+ users of ZHA today (and many more Zigbee2MQTT users than so), do you think would be a sustainable community if each and every one of those users would only willing to try a single best practice tip at a time and not willing to make the effort to do “all in one” recommended actions.

Now I wrote that guide to avoid that situation but most of those best practice tips are also available under troubleshooting sections in the ZHA (and Zigbee2MQTT) documentation, and if you create a new issue before following those tips then respect that you are wasting the time (and patience) of developers.

But you can go ahead and waste your own time trying to directly find and fix that maybe non-existing and improbable root cause before you have done your best to eliminate all common issues like radio noise.

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38

Bro, thanks for the clear words!

I really got it.
Those best practice tipps are nothing I should follow in some parts to eleminate my errors.
Its something I MUST FOLLOW COMPLETELY, before its even worth spending time on my problems (if they are still existing then).
But again. Even if I understood it wrong at the beginning, I now followed ALL! best practise rules except the channel thing.
As I really ask you for answering my questions in my last post.
Edit: I found your edit regarding the Wifi channel 6.

39

Sorry for all the double posts. But I think a new post here is easier.

What I did until now:

  • change coordinator firmware to 7.1.0.0 (from 7.4.?.?)
  • added a lot of new Thirdreallity plugs as routers
  • changed my 2 aqara plugs with thirdreallity ones (so all my mains powered devices are from thirdreallity, except 2 Aqara LED stripes)
  • in addition to all the plugs I added 3 Sonoff Zigbee Dongles with repeater firmware at very good places (I think)
  • I’m using a mains powered USB2 hub on my IntelNuc and on this I have an 3m extension cable with my Skyconnect. So the coordinator is about 2 - 2.5m away from the NUC
  • I removed zigbee plugs very close (<30cm) to shelly plugs (in case they receive a signal and cant forward it because of the shellys)
  • I changed my WIFI 2,4ghz channel from Auto to channel 6
  • I changed my zigbee channel from 11 to 25
  • and one thing - not directly mentionend in the tutorials: after sending this I will delete all the unused AP of WLAN devices (I have some shelly 2pm for example connected with WIFI but still creating thei own WLAN access point (which isnt needed)

Ofcourse I have no idea if my problems still exist (as I changed the channels 10 min ago).

But I really think I followed every single best practise tipp (after some attempts, what I really really can only appologize for)

edit:
when changing my zigbee channel from 11 to 25 via UI it told me that all my devices will rejoin the network and it takes about an hour.
But after confirming this (about 30 min ago now) just nothing happend.
All my 97 devices stayed inside zha (even the aqara battery ones), but in the ZHA settings channel 25 is displayed.
In zha i clicked on config, choosed channel 25 and clicked change channel.
After this I clicked on actualize configuration (at the bottom of the page).

40

If your problems remain after you have done all that then you should now enable debug logging and try to capture and collect debug logs from the point in time where the problem occur so that it is likely to be seen in the debug logs. See:

and

In summery that mean getting debug logs + collecting diagnostics and opening a new issue here in the Home Assistant core repository on GitHub (where you can also search for already reported ZHA and other issues) → Issues · home-assistant/core · GitHub

There is also additional information about reporting issues you should read before open a new issue:

But yes, to make it worth the effort for ZHA developers to help with log analyzing you need(ed) to first have already done your best to take all those actions in order to at least follow the most important best practices tips before moving forward with collecting debug logs, (or else there is a chance they will only show that you have a lot of radio noise in your environment, i.e. EMI/RMI/EMF jamming your Zigbee devices and preventing them from communication properly). If already following best practices then hopefully ZHA developers can help with log analyzing and deeper troubleshooting to find any remaining root causes.

Sorry if I snapped at you but I read your posts like you felt following all best practices tips would be too complicated or time-consuming for you and therefore we should use our time instead to try to find your root cause directly without you needing to take all the recommended best practice actions first, which if it was the case is an outlook and attitude that I find unacceptable as practically all those best practice tips are relatively easy to follow and should not take much time or effort from yoursekf to take actions on. Because in essense the hardest parts boiled down to you making sure to use the Zigbee Coordinator via a long USB extension cable connected to USB 2.0 port to get it away from known sources of EMI/RMI/EMI (like USB 3.0 ports/peripheral/cables/), as well as adding a few additional “known good” Zigbee Router devices in strategic places around your home, and then locking down your WiFi channel and changing to a non-overlapping Zigbee channel (to something that does not conflict), and finally maybe being forced to re-pair most sleepy/battery-powered devices (if they where not awake when the Zigbee channel change commands were sent out to your Zigbee network).

PS: I still think that you should consider also reading this guide too before posting next time though: