Converting from Universal Devices eisy to Home Assistant - thoughts?

I started with Insteon almost 20 years ago and, on the whole, have been very happy with the functionality and reliability - I’m acutally still on the same PLM I started with!

Over the years, I have added some Z-wave devices, starting with thermostats and motion sensors. Later, I added Hue bulbs and recently I’ve took delivery of a RATGDO for my garage door. I’m starting to get the feeling that the eisy is a system of delicately balanced systems that is just looking for an excuse to stop working.

The eisy works great for the Insteon stuff, but I sometimes struggle to get the Z-wave and Hue stuff to work as I would like. Some of this is due to not finding good or up to date information. I started looking at HA when I got the RATGDO and it looks like it might be worth my time to convert my home over to HA. My Insteon network has about 35 devices, the Z-wave about 15, and I have about 40 Hue bulbs and switches.

Some of the specific questions I have are:

  1. When adding a Z-wave device to my current network, I have to either bring the device close to the eisy or manually carry my eisy to the device’s installed location. I understand this is a limitation of the Z-wave protocol. (my house is about 7000sqf). Once added, the Z-wave devices seem to work find wherever they are in the house. Does HA provide a more convenient way to do this? I plan on running HA on a VM from my rackmounted Proxmox machine, so carrying that from place to place is not really an option.
  2. How well does HA work with Hue? I’ve been using the Hue plugin for the eisy which works ok, but recently lost connection to the Hue bridge after I modified my home network (switched to pfSense instead of the ATT router). I’ve been unable to make them talk to each other since. It probably a pretty simple process, but there is a lack of comprehensive and up to date documentation on the eisy side of things.
  3. How well does HA allow different protocols to work together? Let say I wanted to use a dimmer switch to control some can lights that are directly connected to the dimmer, and also some Hue bulbs that always have power? Can you create scenes that contain multiple devices of different types?
  4. Does HA have any significant limitations in setting ramp rates for lights? At the moment, my lights dim as the evening hour progress. They are set at the maximum ramp rate in the eisy (8 minutes) and the rate of change in brightness is almost imperceptible.
  5. Can you write scripts/programs with more complicated logic that might include “switch/case” type constructs?

Are there any other areas I should be looking at?

Thanks!

Have been keeping an eye on your post, as I am in the same exact situation with Universal Devices (UD).

ISY stuff great, but ZWave and now Zigbee really disappointing implementations.

UD seems to be rushing keeping up with the latest home automation technologies, but producing junk code, and producing that new junk on top of an outdated code base lacking key features (with few/no improvements).

The interrupt-based control logic has lots of downsides, but I can live with that, as it is perfect for Mealy State logic implementation (only using if-thens, and never any elses, and never using waits (except in making state var timers).

The initial codebase does not have a variable abstraction between raw device interfaces, and all subsequent references to those devices in programs and scenes. You have no ability to re-map raw devices to the logic base. Yes, Insteon stuff has a “replace” function, but that does not exist for ZWave and Zigbee. (really amateur land).

The biggest deal for me is the inability to backup and restore this zwave and zigbee stuff, and lots of opportunities to lose it all and have to go back to redoing everything.

Great for a hobbyist, but not so good for larger projects.

Here is my situation (like you, with it since about 2005, ISY-99. then ISY-994, now Polisy):

(35) Hue bulbs, nearly all White Ambiance (that allows amber to bright white change).

(20) Insteon plug-in dimmers
(8) Insteon bulbs
Lots of spares for above as I have been transitioning to Hue
(5) Insteon Motion/Temp sensors

lots of Insteon human interfaces: wall dimmers, multi-button dimmers in walls, on tabletop, and quite a few multi-button mini-remotes. (Insteon still king in this area).

(8) Zwave motion, tilt sensors, and multi-digital outputs for sprinkler control


Here is why “losing” a Zwave or Zigbee (Hue) setup is such a big deal for me.

My basic system before additional scenes and lots of programs:

I have four scenes for a large main living area Morning, Evening, Dim, Sleep.

And I have four Controllers in each of those four Scenes (mini-remotes, in-wall, tabletop 6-button).

And…I have the same 27 bulbs that I am controlling in those four scenes.

And nearly all the bulbs are Hue Ambiance with Brightness and (color) Temperature setting.

Again, four controllers in each of four scenes, plus the top “named” scene is in itself a virtual “controller” that programs can command. Each of those five controllers needs to be individually configured for each bulb. And each bulb has two variables.

Here is the math:

4 scenes x 5 controllers/scene x 27 devices/controller x 2 entries/device = 1,080 changes.

If it takes me 30 seconds per change (on average including breaks), that is 9 hours of non-stop work. I am suicidal in those final hours it is so tedious.


I am currently using a Hue Hub and Nodeserver for the Hue bulbs. I wanted to get rid of that hub and use UD’s ZMatter ZWave/Zigbee USB module. Spent a lot of time on forum and even direct comms with Michel. It looked perfect.

Here is reality:

Polisy firmware update that goes bad? REDO (this has happened twice for me).

Accidentally delete a Hue bulb in Admin console before first removing it from the Zigbee network? 1) Throw bulb away, 2) Sell bulb on eBay, 3) reset the entire Zigbee system to be able to again discover that bulb and start from scratch. REDO. (ZMatter still thinks it is there and will not allow a re-add)

Accidentally unpair an installed bulb (at the actual bulb). Same as above. ZMatter still thinks it is there and will not allow a re-add. REDO

Four or more right-click options in Admin Console have no explanation in online documentation, and nothing in the Forums. At least three will, without warning, cause a complete reset of your Zigbee system and lose all handles to devices in Scenes and Programs. REDO.

Basic debugging of radio comms problems in ZWave Dongle or ZMatter often call for a reset of the module: REDO


The implementation of ZWave has the same interface and options and issues as the Zigbee. But there is one big difference. You can always recover a ZWAVE device, as when you do a factory un-pair AT THE DEVICE, the micro in the ZWave Dongle or ZMatter unit detects that device reset and removes it from its polling list. With Zigbee, the ZMatter micro does not detect an external reset of device and it remains in its polling list, and will not allow a re-add.

So yes, you can also screw up in ZWave by deleting a device before removing it from your ZWave network. But easy recovery.

But for both ZWave and Zigbee devices, why when you delete a device is there not a sequence that forces a network remove first??? I raise this with UD developers and get no response.


But the big killer for me is that the UD implementation of Zigbee does not fully support Hue bulbs.

Nearly all of my bulbs are the far more expensive White Ambiance with color temperature control.

The Hue Hub works great (of course).

The UD ZMatter Zigbee stack only recognizes the Candle E12 bulbs color temperature variable. None of the other Hue bulbs (BR30, E26, etc.) will have the color temperature variable recognized (just brightness).

A big show-stopper for me. UD support just shrugs their shoulders and says it is the Zigbee library 3rd party stack they use that they can do nothing about.

Really? The monster in the Zigbee HA world (Phillips Hue) is not properly supported by the library you use?


But even more shocking to me is that there is nothing in the UD Forums about this. That tells me that UD has a very niche, very small market of hobbyists.


And as far as maintaining their base code, even just for Insteon:

Here is a simple thing they could do that would benefit all users, and save me about 8 hours of effort to REDO the system:

Have the ability to right click a controller in a Scene and pick “Capture current bulb levels” (brightness, and color, temperature if avail)

My wife could manually set each bulb for desired effect for a scene, and in ten seconds, it is done.

At the least, why not have a right-click of a controller in a scene and have the ability to copy the settings from a previously set controller in that scene?

BUT UD HAS NO INTEREST IN IMPROVING THAT BASE CODE. For all I know, the original programmer of that code is long gone, it is a spaghetti mess, and they are adverse to even touching it for fear of breaking sh1t.


I am not convinced they are going to survive. It is time to future proof.

Considering my options and will look into H.A. But programming looks pretty weak on first glance

I used ISY994i sparingly but went all in with Zwave on Polisy. For me the final straw with UD was the second time their firmware updates hosed my Polisy, resulting in having to rebuild my Zwave network twice. I only have 50-some devices but I wasn’t about to have it happen a third time. I did get an eISY but decided to use it just for the few Insteon and X10 devices I have left. I also use Locative with UD Mobile and find it more reliable than the HA companion for tracking iPhone presence. The HA companion goes wacky every once in a while and reports my phone away when it is home, a known issue.

I don’t have elaborate automations here on HA but I will say the interface is friendly and intuitive for an amateur and has been able to do everything I’ve needed. I always found the UD products powerful but not very intuitive. What really sets HA apart for me is the control over the UI it provides and the ability to combine disparate ecosystems into one dashboard with excellent community integration support. That was the single largest factor in getting me to move away from ISY.

I’m tired of the JNLP reporting it’s the wrong version, not finding my ISY, having to log into ISY portal, etc. I know they are working on it but they seem to be losing ground rather than catching up.

I will always wish UD well, their customer support has always been excellent, but it seems to me they are on a sinking ship and struggling to patch all the leaks.

Yes. Buried on that long post of mine is the fact that once I moved beyond the embedded ISY space (ISY-99, ISY994) into the linux-computer build of the Polisy, etc…

…the mere act of attempting an upgrade for just improvements or adding a new piece of hardware (like ZMatter) guaranteed a painful process that always resulted in starting from scratch, rebuilding my entire system which takes 1.5 to 2 days of non-stop monotonous effort. There are no backups for zwave nor zigbee, as there are no unique id’s native available from the devices themselves (unlike Insteon). Unique ID’s re created on pairing.

Too bad UD did not create an abstraction layer to allow you to re-map after a necessary re-pair of devices after zwave/zigbee resets on the Polisy.

I really like Insteon for their user interfaces (keypads), and, the ability to produce a host-less network between devices.

I will probably drop back to my embedded rock-solid ISY994 for just managing Insteon (including host-less scenes that HA cannot do), and use the ethernet interface REST-based API to communicate to HA where I will collect my ZWave and ZigBee devices and host automation.

I, too, have an ISY994i. I was very disappointed that UD discontinued it, but, in deference to UD, I haven’t needed support.

That discontinuance really hit home that one cannot expect support that will last as long as your house. Well, that and really getting burned a couple times by cloud based applications.

I migrated my Z-wave devices to HA, and kept the Insteon devices controlled by the ISY994i. The HA integration for the ISY994i works well for me. Controlling devices and scenes works as is expected. Capturing fast on and fast off (double taps) is only a little kludgy.

My Z-wave motion sensor is nice because it is possible to decouple the light from the motion sensor. It is part of my HA Z-wave network. I control the light with my Insteon switch, which is part of my ISY network. This is the logic for turning on or off the light:

  • Normal motion sensor: when motion sensed, light goes on, when sensor times out, light goes off (motion sensor–>switch–>motion sensor light).
  • Single tap Insteon switch on, light always stays on; any other tap cancels (switch–>motion sensor light; ignore light off from motion sensor)
  • Double tap Insteon off, light always stays off; any other tap cancels (switch–>motion sensor light; ignore light on from motion sensor).

The lack of linear programming in the ISY is troublesome, but often it is possible to get around this lacking with just Boolean statements (I used to teach Boolean logic at university) which results in a faster response.

I have added a Zigbee device to my system and that is connected to HA.

My advice is to document well the chimaeras that one has in one’s systems because someday the existing support web pages will be removed.

Going forward, HA seems to have a lot of promise because it is backwards compatible. I expect to be in my house another 30 years and I don’t want to replace functional devices just because some organization doesn’t have the bandwitdth to keep them functional.

I kinda skipped over all the ist stuff in this thread since I know nothing about it. But the op’s questions appear to be about home assistant.I can answer some of those.

1 Can’t answer this for Z-wave out of my own experience but haven’t heard of this being an issue. Defnitely not the case for zigbee (hue).
2 Hue devices are zigbee. You can either use the hue bridge and the Hue integration, or use another hub (affordable options aplenty) and communicate with your hue devices in any way you want. There are some things that work more easily out me f the box with Hue (scene presets eg) but ZHA or Z2Mare way more flexible and powerful.
3 Very well.Scenes and automations are protocol blind.
4 Depends if you want to use built-in ramp rates some lights have.Those can be limited. If they are not sufficient you can always write an automation to slow it down. Most lights also have limited step sizes like seven or eight bit, but if your light supports 86k steps of brightness you can ramp every second over 24hours of your heart desires so
5 Yes. Check out the documentation Script Syntax - Home Assistant