Diseaster / Fallback-Strategy when Home Assistant needs Assistance

7

Well - this is definitly a clear Direction: If Important, always keep Possiblity to become dumb :smiley:
Happy i haven’t ordered Heating/Locker :smiley:

Couple of short Questions first:
Are you aware of a quite reliable Zigbee-Bridge, that one could put in the Middle before HA and after Switches/MotionTriggers/Lights? Then i could probably still use interact via HA, but could hand over control in Case of HA beeing down.

Regarding a Fallback-HA System: I think i still want to continue with that Idea. Regulary Backups are already automatically pulled to my NAS.
Next Step might be automatic Restoring of the second-latest Backups from the Live System to the Backup-System. To make it as reliable as possible, i might come up with a Dual Backup/Restore Strategy: In Addition to the regulary updated Backups a Longterm Backup, with extended tested, probably on a second SD-Card.
How do you guys keep your Fallback-System Up-To-Date? Totally manually?
Do you have any automatic A/B Switching - is the Fallback System always on, and kicks in when the Live System isnt reachable? Or, again, totally manually?

UPS: Are you aware of a Kind of Powerbank-UPS that could do passthrough and have enough V/A for a RaspberryPi 4, probably with a SSD connected?
If possible, i’d want to avoid a “Big” Powersupply. Never had Problems for the NAS, and having a 3-2-1 Backup-Strategy leaves me quite comfortable enough.

Now for the Thougts on Lights Dumb vs Smart:
While i can totally follow you, i’m still a bit unsure if there is a real and practical Hybrid-Solution for e.g. our Lights: We have Wallswitches for all Lights, and after your Feedback definitly will continue using them. But that implies a Couple of Downsides:

If the (Smart Zigbee) Lights get turned off via Wallswitch (which happens quite often because of beeing used to) no Automation in the World will turn them on again.
If they get turned on again hardwired, they return to their last state. So always dimmed to 10% if you want 100%, and vice versa :-p
Theres always a Second Wireless Remote (thats what my Partner demands) next to the Wallswitch
In Case HA really is Down, theres no Possibilty to dim them up again. Only Plan C: Reset and pair them with the Switches directly

These are all together quite a few Downsides. I can only think of a reliable Dumb-Solution by. Well… Using Dumb Bulbs :smiley: As soon as i want to use e.g. Motion Triggers to turn Lights on, or Dim them, i (at least partially) give up Fallback Strategies.

My Conclusion by Now regarding the Lights:
Yes. The Basic/Emergency-Lights will need to stay 80% dumb. I still can use Smart Lights, but only at 100% Brightness, and only turned off by Automations. Turn on relies on the Hardwired Method.

Uff. Still feeling a bit indifferent.
On the one Hand it is absolutely clear that important Parts always need to be Dumb operable.
On the other Hand the important Parts benefit most from beeing automated.
Would have loved to hear a story like “For 6 Years i rely on HA, have Strategy X,Y,Z, and twice the Year the Live-System has a failure, but always got covered from the Plan B/Plan C, til i fixed the Main System” :wink:

Thanks all for your constructive Hints!

8

Can you tell more? How do you keep it up to date, does it take over automatically (if so, how?)

Same Direction - do you do automatic restores to the Fallback-System? If so, how?

Interesting! What are you talking about for example?

What do you think about having two Versions of the Backup-System - an automatic with the second-last Backup enrolled, and a manually and with Love tested “Longterm” System?

9

No. I just do a manual backup after a round of development.

Which tends to be every couple of days. :laughing:

And I don’t copy anything directly to a “fall-back” machine.

If my production machine fails I can easy have my latest config copied back over to the new machine in a short time.

And in the meantime all of my stuff still works the old-fashioned way until I get the automation system back running so there is no reason at all to go to panic mode.

And don’t forget that any backup system won’t be able to truly “just work” on failure of the main system if you use things like usb based controllers (zwave, zigbee, etc) since those will have to be physically moved to the back up machine.

So there can’t ever really be a true auto fall back system if you use that type of platform.

10

Like associating a light switch with a light across the room without needing HA as a middleman. Or a motion sensor with some driveway lights. Z-wave, Zigbee and 433MHz devices all support that natively.

I mean backups are obviously important. I do them every time I change something. I also have spare parts around, like a second Pi. If something goes wrong, I’d just copy my last full disk image to a new SD card, pop it into the spare Pi, move the Z-Wave stick and I’m up and running again. And since the house is still functional in dumb mode, there’s no need to rush anything. Pretty much what @finity explained. I don’t have an always-online spare running or anything like that though.

11

Nonono, not hardwired like that. Hardwired over a wireless relay or dimmer module behind the switch (EU way) or integrated with the switch (US way). This will automatically fall back to normal dumb operation when the network goes down or when the controller is offline. They can also communicate with other switches by themselves without a controller active (direct association).

Eh I just use a normal ‘big’ UPS for the entire rack, including HA, NAS, NVR, modem and PoE routers.

12

i use Ikea_hub ( for non essential ) Lights/Switches, can control those lights, with HA, RemoteC, and PhoneApp (Thou i guess it’s limited to Ikea Devices)
For Temperatures+Motion sensors+switches i also use Aqara_M2_hub … common for both is they support Wifi and Ethernet ( i have both “Wired”, less disturbance in" wifi net + fast reliable connection(Hub close to devices)
PS: And don’t use any “smart switches” for your “Freezer”( beside for “testing power consumption” ), You might find water running out of your Freezer some day :laughing: ( Yes i did :wink: )

13

My 2 “Controllers” are wired through switch to Router, (and keep their devices, through at-least 4 hours power-loss, as i so far experienced), and can “control” the devices via Phone App(some via RC also, regardless of HA

14

Then those aren’t the type of controllers I was talking about. Those are probably ethernet/wifi based devices.

I was talking about the type of controllers that connect the HA PC via the local USB port on the machine itself.

15

Yes i got that( after reading again, after i posted :slight_smile: ), thou that was a part of my idea of having a “Home-system” that was not entirely depended on 1 single device( HA, with it’s “hard-connected” devices, which i have none of, beside keyboard/mouse :slight_smile: , as not only software failure, but even hardware and power failure is accounted, when it comes to “security / fallback strategic”

16

Yes The Hubs(Gateways) are, capable of connecting to router either ways( so they communicate with HA through Ethernet(in my case), devices to the aqara_hub are Zigbee/ Ble/ IR/ wifi, ikea(Zigbee)

17

Wait, what?! I think i totally misunderstood the Basic Concept - i thought a Zigbee-Device can only be paired once with a Controller!
So in my Case (most of my Lights are Tradfri) i could just pair my Lights/Remotes with Homeassistant and a Tradfri-Gateway / Aqara Hub? And the Remote Commands/Motion will get handed over to HA (in Case it is alive), Actions from HA will go to the Lights via the Tradfri-Gateway / Aqara-Hub?!
Is that great News or did i get it wrong again? :stuck_out_tongue_winking_eye:

Ah! Didn’t know they would fallback to dumb behavior in Case the Controller isnt available. The EU Way i dont get, since Poweroff means Poweroff, right? Doesnt matter to much tough, there are currently no plans to exchange the Switches :wink:

This is the Route i wanna go. I just think that i could minimize the Time by e.g. already have the Last Backup automatically rolled out. And/or the tested Longterm-Backup on Disc. And/or having the Fallback-Pi ping the Live-System periodically. And/or… :smiley:

Lot of great Input! Thank you all for your helpful Inputs, really appreciate it! :slight_smile:

18

Im not sure what / how you are thinking, or what you “think” you “got wrong” … have you thought about what i wrote

“for non essential” meaning these device connected to the Ikea “Controller/Gateway” … and yes HA stands for the automation of these “Lights / Switches” ( I have no idea how you “paired” your devices, i paired them with my phone APP, through the Ikea Controller) NOT with HA, and use the “Ikea Integration” to connect the the “Controller” with it’s devices … , and yes as you correctly assumes, the HA automations and manual click in HA-UI , controlles the lights/switches … no magic there
So, i still have the Mobil APP (ikea) which i used to “pair” the devices to the “Controller”, and i can use that APP to controll the devices as-well , No magic, PhonAPP talks via Wifi Through router, through Ethernet to “Controller” to Devices ( that i have paired with/in the controller) Hope you follow me so far … because i actually have 3 st “5 button” ikea Remote Controllers as-well ( Paired “default” ikea way, to respective Devices) … So I don’t know if this is Great News, or just “common” procedure … If HA (for some reason) can’t control the devices, i have my ikea phoneAPP, if i don’t have my phone or it’s dead, I have the “Ikea” RC’s ( which i use sometimes, when “passing by” :slight_smile: , if batteries also are dead there … I light a candle :grin:
So , I also have the Aqara-Controller, with 8 temperatures, 4 motion sensors(2 of them controls ikea-lights, through HA), 3 switches, All Paired to the Aqara-m2( actually also added basic functionality from my IR Remotes for TV / Reciever, Just for fun" through the app")… I also Added all through my Aqara PhoneAPP( So i can control all through the aqaraAPP, and added the bunch to “Homekit-Controler” Integration in HA ( Aqara-IR is not supported in Homekit-Controller) … but rest of Devices, plus Aqara ARM feature, works great in HA-“Homekit-Integration”, with the automations as-well
PS: Yes i could set up “automations” in PhoneAPP as-well, but that’s probably to take it “a step” to far-out :slight_smile:

So Yes With IKEA-Integration in HA, you ADD the IKEA Gateway( Trådfri-Gateway )
… and “Like Magic” all your devices are ready to go, your phoneAPP works as usual, so does your ikea-RC’s ( but it’s a-bit tricky with some automations( Made in HA), when triggering also with the RC, but that you’ll figure out, eventually :wink:

19

Not really. The relay or dimmer module sits in the wallbox and electrically replaces the switch. The light fixture is entirely controlled by the module, the wall switch is disconnected from the light circuit. The switch is then directly connected to the module instead. When you hit the switch, it tells the module to turn the light on or off locally. It behaves like a normal switch, but it goes through the modules microcontroller, which will sync the switch commands with the network (if it’s online).

It’s the same with all-in-one switches more commonly used in the US. They just have the module integrated into the switch itself.

This will very significantly limit your options for automatic ‘dumb fallback’. Replacing the switches with smart ones is pretty much the basis of the entire dumb fallback concept. Using smart lightbulbs will limit your options a lot more.

20

That is the missing Link i got unsure about. If there would have been a possibility for HA to react to Remote Events directly, i would have put the Gateway in the Middle. I mean, still it could be a Part of a “Fallback” strategy anyway!

This im gonna think about. If Remote → Light ↔ Gateway ↔ Homeassistant could be a helpful Piece :slight_smile: Thanks!

Totally agree. Aside the Cost and Work to exchange them, it is Politically at the Moment its not a good Moment to come up with “Hey, new switches everywhere!” :wink: :smiley:

So, my Conclusio:

  • I will identify critical Lights/Devices, and find an “As-Dumb-as-possible” Solution
  • Regulary, possible automated Backups
  • Regulary check, if restoring them is possible
  • UPS at least for the RaspberryPi

Thank you all for your great Input! Feel happy to add you Ideas, Strategies, your Diseaster-Solutions.
Cheers, and wish you all a non-corrupted Backup handy if needed :slight_smile:

21

Im not sure i understand what you mean, The devices reacts upon the RC’s, and you’ll see the response immediately in HA, so HA immediately respond to the “events” and “state” changes… and what are you exactly means by below ? ( did someone confuse you , in regards to how things works ? )

22

Haha, na, now im fine :smiley:

The HA can react to the State of the Lights, not to the RC themselfs.
Can: If the Lights got turned on, start a a Timer and play Music
Can not: If the RC has the event “Dimmed up”, Make music louder (no change to any Light)

If the (Tradfri-)Gateway would have passed the RC-Events directly to Homeassistant, and would have been configurable to e.g. ignore Button-Left-Events. Then i would have configured the (Tradfri-)Gateway to always do the Basic Stuff (and HA to “mirror” it), so it would work even when HA is down.

Not beeing happy with what Ikea predefined for Remote <> Light is one of the main things that brought me to Homeassistant! :smiley:

23

IF the RC passes the “events” to HA(in some way), instead of Device/Gateway, the RC won’t work if HA is down … thats the whole point, of having the “Gateway” ( controlling devices from APP in i.e.phone or HA)… AND you can flash/program the ikea (5 button RC’s) but still It’s “talking” Zigbee, so how would you ever get a Device (laptop, Pi, NAS , whatever HA “nest on”) that is not build for sending/receiving Zigbee to “respond” to a Zigbee-signal ? … and in regards to your last “commend” … i don’t know what you are “not happy about” , where / to what did you paired your RC’s to, a tradfri-outlet(plug), a Tradfri-Driver ? , Do you have a Tradfri-Controller(hub), and “paired/repaired” any Devices yet ?
PS: The “event” if passed from HA, goes through the “Gateway” to the Device, The events/state from a “Device” goes Through the Gateway to HA , but yes you could “flash/programme” your RC to use for other(or maybe ikea) Zigbee devices/gateway … but still the “state” does come from the Device you are controlling

24

Well, if i didnt get it wrong, then a remote can only be paired once. Either with a tradfri-Light, a Tradfri-Hub, or e.g. HA/Deconz.
So i can’t e.g. use button up to turn the light on (via tradfri-Gateway) and button left to turn on a tasmota-light (via HA/Deconz).
Probaly one could improvise with unnoticable e.g. changing the color, which triggers a HA-Event. But well… :grinning:
Thank you very much for taking your Time, appreciate it! :relaxed:

1 Like
25

If you plan to use your 5Button for something else

26

I use backup on regular basis. My backups are stored in usb stick plug in one of my routers. My switches are wifi but I’m migrating more towards zigbee. If home assistant goes down all my lights will be operational but everything wouldnt be accessible online. Switches can work without net like normal switch would do. I know that for sure for my zigbee switches as they can operate lights before I pair them to home assistant. The only problem I will have is a few dumb switches used on stairs. They wouldn’t be able to control light without network.
If I dont know what happens I believe I can get my server running in day or two.