Hi All,
I have 6 surface mounted ceiling lights similar to the one below, all 6 lights are controlled via 2 wall switches in a 3 way configuration, I would like to be able to control each light individually, and looking for some advice on which mite be the best way to accomplish this.
Ideally, I would like to maintain local control for the non tech savvy users, and, in the event that internet or WiFi connection is lost, and of course, have it all integrated in HA.
Thanks in advance.
There is plenty of space in these lights. Maybe a Shelly 1 Will do
Thanks, thought about that, been looking at both the Shelly 1 and the Sonoff RFR2, still not sure how I would maintain local offline control though.
Just my opinion, but any time you want to control lights seperately from the wall switches (ie independently) you are going to run into the spouse challenge. This is where the wall switch gets flipped, and the lights are no longer accessable via your new option in HA.
Since you cut the power to the light via the wall switch, your devices will be dead and no longer accessible.
If you can work with just automating the entire circuit, then I would recommend adding a zwave stick to your HA environment, and replacing the wall switches with zwave switches.
This is simple enough and the first thing I looked into, but it still doesnât give me control of each light independently.
The problem with what you want to do is that the lights are likely all connected in parallel with the switches supplying power to one hot leg that gores to all the light at one time.
Unless you have access to the wiring in the wall/ceiling thereâs no way to split them out to be controlled individually.
Unless you have access to the wiring then you have two options but neither will get you where you want to be:
as long as that control outweighs the spousal frustration factor. The other option might be to look at something like a Hue light bulb (ie bluetooth).
I do have access to the wiring at each light.
Yes, but do you have access to the wiring from each light all the way back to the switch?
You would basically have to run an individual hot wire from wherever the control device is (switch/relay/etc) to each light fixture.
Even then it would take some cyphering to figure out the wiring required to make each light individually controllable while still maintaining control of the group of lights with the current three-way switches. 
The later is not necessarily if I can add some sort of local switch to control each light independently.
Even then you still need to find a way to pull a new hot wire from the light fixture all the way back to the switch location for at least 5 of the lights (one of the lights will already have one from the existing hot wire).
And then you will need to find a way to fit 5 more switches into the existing switch box(es).
And if you want to keep them three-way switches you will need to pull a three wire cable from between each switch for 5 more lights.
Itâs going to get really messy!
It would be way easier to just put in smart 3-way switches with the way they are currently wired.
I was thinking of bypassing the 3 way switches and adding some other form of switch.
Your determination is admirable 
But there is no way you can get away from needing to run wires from the light fixtures to the switch/relay location (no matter what kind of switches you use or wherever you put them) for at least 5 of the existing lights.
And again if you want to keep the feel of traditional toggle style light switches you will need to come up with a way to put 5 additional light switches in the existing wall box or re-engineer things to put the switches in a different location. Or use a different style of switch such as a bank of small pushbutton type switches that may or may not work if your HA system goes down.
Would it help you understand why if I came up with a drawing to explain it?
I understand what you are saying, just hoping for a reasonable solution.
I think the best option would be to bypass (wired always ON) the existing wall switches, and use Sonoffâs with RF Wall switch
I was just responding to your initial statements. If those requirements have changed then what you suggested above should work.
But obviously you wonât be able to control the lights at all if your wifi or HA goes down.
I recently moved house, the first and foremost requirement was to have manual control of the lighting so if HA went down, no problem.
So the wiring was undertaken to have a live/neutral in every box where I wanted a âswitchâ to be. I undertook to replace the roof and replaster following the rewire too so there was a fair bit going on.
I use ha to control the light level through the day and to turn lights off after what I consider to be an unreasonable amount of time.
So given you have 6 lights and you can adapt wiring, where do you need the switches ? Do you need to switch a given light from 2 places? Do you need to switch a given light from 3 or more places? Your use of the term 3-way switch is ambiguous and I hate ambiguity in writing a spec or implementing it.
So we have light 1), light 2), light 3) ⌠6)
How many PLACES do you need to switch from? Letâs start at place A) how many lights get switched from here?, which ones?.. Goto place B) ditto question C) ditto question⌠any more places? So how can you accommodate this? Do you plan on controlling dimming from these switch points or not (this affects wiring especially if if across multiple places) (I donât control level locally, though in an emergency I can get full output by double flipping a given switch). What voltage are your lights? What voltage do you want to switch? Do you want momentary switches or bi-stable?
If you are away and a bulb goes, do you want your wife to just screw in a new bulb from a âBulb Boxâ or be required to pair a bulb, configure it and set it in sceneâs? Do you ever have power outages? (then avoid tradfri).
You need to think about your needs and convey them before a good recommendation can be made.
Edit 2: do you have a switch plate in mind? Can you utilise a grid switch pattern? Have you already got a switch style in mind? Can you get intermediates in this pattern? (only necessary if you plan to switch a light from 3 or more locations and you are NOT going to use momentary switches)
Edit 1: Final thing, what happens when you sell your house? Will the new owner just rewire? Will he take on your interest in home automation? Is this going to be a positive consideration or a huge negative ? (my house will go back to âdumbâ quite easily.)
the use of â3-way switchâ is standard terminology in the US to mean a switch that can control the same load that is controlled from two locations. itâs a switch that has a common terminal and two inverted switched terminals. I think Iâve heard in the UK itâs called a 2-way switch.
Technically thatâs (unambiguously) called a âsingle pole-double throwâ (SPDT) and is the âstandard switchâ in lighting circuits. To add a third location actually requires a 'double pole-double throw (DPDT, but two positions are linked and hidden) generally referred to by electricians as an âintermediateâ (cos it goes between standard switches). Thatâs what I mean about ambiguity, as a â3 way switchâ should have 3 positions (never seen a light switch like that but itâs possible I suppose). Electricians also call a cable to carry live, neutral and earth - a âtwo coreâ so I always check their understanding at least twice. 
(though with UK standard cables itâs hard to use the third core as anything but earth, still âmoreâ cores are often required)
Intermediates are not always available in all configurations, which is why sometimes we have to resort to grids, so you make up what you need, assembled in a grid, this is normally more commercial than domestic, but itâs what I had to go with.
Momentary switches allow easier wiring but are not easily convertable back to âdumbâ wiring.
This is the set up Iâm talking about:
You may be âtechnicallyâ correct but in normal parlance in the US if you are referring to the switches as I described them then they are called â3-way switchesâ. I doubt you will find an electrician that would go to an electrical supply store and ask for a SPDT switch when asking for a standard light switch or a DPDT switch when asking for a 3-way light switch.
Do a search in google for the US and put in â3-way switchâ and you will get gobs of examples of what I mean. If you google DPDT switch youi will get almost none of the results showing a light switch. Mostr will be industrial toggle switches.
Iâve never heard a three way switch as an âintermediateâ. If itâs wired as above itâs not an intermediate. Itâs the only type of switch used in the circuit.
And Iâve never heard anyone call a cable with 2 current conductors and a ground as a âtwo-coreâ in the US. Standard parlance here is â12/2 with groundâ or âtwo conductor with groundâ.
And Iâve been an electrician in the US for almost 37 years.
Yeah, you demonstrate my point exactly. I was precise in my terminology but you misunderstood part of what I said.
I said if you needed to control a light from 3 (or more) places (yours shows 2) then you would need an âintermediateâ switch between the two you show in your diagram.
You insist on using terms common in the US. Not everyone on this forum is from the US. The â2 coreâ cable I was referring to earlier is actually â2 core plus earthâ but it gets shortened to â2 coreâ and a whole section of âmodernâ technicians just think itâs called â2 coreâ. They are wrong and donât know why they are wrong and refuse to even hear an argument.
I know that my terms may be uncommon but they are unambiguous to anyone from an electronics (or electrical, but you proved me wrong there) background. Anyone confused, can lookup âyour toggle switchâ and grasp the principle. An example form should not imply size/current carrying capacity or limit other forms possible.
By the way, 37 is a lower number than mine but why should a number dictate the validity of an argument? 
I generally donât like UK cabling, as its based on adiabatic calculations (and current carrying capacity too, but thatâs just a given), which should not be the only criteria
