You might think you have good coverage with WiFi, but its a two way communication and battery powered devices do often not have that high TX power, so they might not be able to talk to your APs, even though your APs can talk to the device.
Is this a theoretical thing? Because running around 100 esphome nodes here with various cheap/old openwrtized access points (like kind the other end of an unifi network @champagj can call his own) and face none of your described degradation of service. 
If I would imagen this 100 devices were Z-Stuff and battery powered I probably could change the battery every 3 days on a device (if we assume they last a year). Beside I read that “sometimes” the Z-things loose pairing and need a manual intervention to get back on track. Silent degradation looks to be also a problem of big Z-Networks to my understanding.
In all stuff I don’t want as it occupies my time and is kind of a contradiction to a smart home for me.
So while in theory Z-wave/Zigbee were supposed to be great and should allow full interoperability the reality might be slightly different. Now we have the next band wagon to jump on as it looks like Z-Technology will be probably phased out and replaced by matter.
And Scaling is actually a good topic. I’m not aware of any solution powerful as esphome regarding management and deployment of nodes. How long would it take to “onboard” 100 esphome VS. Z-nodes in HA? I don’t know but I can hardly imagen in can go anywhere as quick as with esphome.
Beside the right to repair or change only comes with full ownership (not only over the hardware but specially the software part). To my knowledge (please proof me wrong @HeyImAlex) this Z-Stuff is all proprietary and ones bought you are limited to the functions the manufacture included. Also regarding updates you need to rely (hope) that the manufacture still cares about the stuff they sold yesterday or last year (typically they don’t because you should buy the newest revision which includes the software improvements)
No, it’s a practical thing. That’s what they were designed for and that’s what they do.
Huh? How is that any different from wifi battery powered devices, other than wifi having considerable shorter battery life ? Most of the z devices are mains powered. If you have 100 battery powered devices, then battery management is going to be an issue regardless of protocol used. And usually z-protocol devices will have battery life well over a year. Because, again, that’s what they are designed for. My zwave motion sensors have a battery life of around 3 years.
If you use cheap noname crap. The same as with wifi. Use good quality devices and you won’t have that problem. My zwave network never lost a node. Not once.
There is no such thing. Z networks are self repairing. Zwave more than zigbee though.
Well I only use “noname crap” and they do all work a treat. I’m buying my (only esp based) wifi devices for over 5 years directly overseas and had not only 
DOA’s but till today also not one defect device in action 
But indeed some people want/need to spend big to think they get something valuable 
Zwave more than zigbee 
You might wanna help over here with this “less” self healing Z 
I’m just happy that my esphome based wifi devices always work and don’t need (re)pairing, button presses, healing or whatever else exists 
No it is not.
I work in IT and our network department have invested heavily in management systems for Wifi access points. You can somewhat easy distributed 3 access points by putting on on the center of the frequency spectrum and one in each end, but after that they start to interfere with each other, so you have to choose the right frequency and at the same time lower the transmit power to avoid one access point to reach a neighboring one at the same or nearby frequency.
Am I doing something wrong with my 4 access points on Channel 1, 5, 9 and 13? 
The thing is wifi is made to work even with heavy interference (not nice but in worst case it needs to re-transmit packages till the receiver acknowledges them). Otherwise it would be actually impossible to use WIFI in cities for example and we would long use something different
As a side note: The Z-Technology-
(thank’s @HeyImAlex for correction) uses the same frequency range 
Yeah. Right. Can’t argue against completely irrational rambling. I’m out of here.
@champagj, I suggest you do some more research about your options and see if you can get some other, more objective opinions. The opinions voiced by @orange-assistant are extremely biased and factually incorrect. I would suggest taking them with a (large) grain of salt.
No, Zwave does not.
Interesting! Thank’s for that information - wasn’t aware of that at. 
I saved the ISM 2,4GHz band for WIFI, BLE and Z-
/ but indeed Z-Wave works somewhere between 865.2 and 926.3 MHz depending on the region 
If you have any other corrections you want to tell us @HeyImAlex feel free to this in this thread (would be useful instead of just “irrational rambling” )
Well. There sort of is. I bought some Kuled WiFi switches from Amazon two years ago, flashed ESPHome on them and they have been working fine since installing them. Last November, I ordered two more. These, however did not have the ESP chip, but instead they are using a Bekin BK7231N chip. Not at all compatible with ESP. However, the switch still works with their cloud service, so as far as Kuled is concerned, they are the same.
This is why I prefer Athom with ESPHome already flashed.
Most of my home is using WiFi devices. Some Z-Wave and a couple of Zigbee. I prefer the WiFi devices.
Not if you aren’t using a cloud service.
Not if the first thing you do is to flash ESPHome or Tasmota to them. The only thing in my home that is “on cloud” are my Honeywell thermostats. And they predate my use of Home Assistant.
You can send it to me.
You can fairly easily migrate Tasmota to ESPHome. Just create your device .bin file in ESPHome then use the Tasmota OTA feature to flash the .bin file to the device.
An IP scan reveals that my home has 128 devices on my 2.4GHz WiFi. About half of them are IOT things and none of the IOT devices has ever misbehaved.
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It depends on where in the world you are.
Channel 12 and 13 is restricted use in a lot of places and it is actually illegal to use them there and interference from the devices that are allowed to use them can occur.
That is why most guides say 1, 6 and 11.
True, it tries to retransmit and after just a few failures it will start to limit the frequency spread to better find a place without interference, but that also means less throughput.
The frequency spectrum for 2.4Ghz is pretty used up in many congested places and that is why the 5GHz frequency spectrum have been release for license-free usage by WiFi.
What you do not see in the output of a WiFi scanner is the arc when under load and you do not see all the other things that use the frequency spectrum, but that do not announce themself as WiFi network.
It can be hidden WiFi networks, remotes, DECT phones, RF doorbells, even a number of microwaves hits the frequency when in use. And then there is of course Zigbee and Z-wave networks also.
WiFi was designed to handle multiple networks using the same spectrum, but it is oversaturated today and networking professionals will all tell you to wire as much as possible to ease up on the saturation.
Often you can not really control it.
Yes, you might be able to buy ESP devices, but suddenly they are not using ESP chips anymore and then you are forced to find new devices. Many Tuya users have already experienced that problem.
I totally agree that ESP devices are nice, because we often have a way to reflash them, but it is still on the “good” will of the vendor to allow this. Some vendors switch away from ESP, probably mostly for product development, but there some that actually remove the normal flash holes from their prints, so you need to really fiddle with a print to prevent us from reflashing.
I can send you my switch if you are going to pay for delivery @stevemann . It could cost more than a switch.
The problem with flashing devices is mostly on manufacture side. The sonoff switches I flashed a few years ago were basically easy to flash as they had exposed pins. As I never flash switch before it took me a fair amount of time to research, buy equipment I needed to do it and study the way how to do it.
Some switches like tuya wifi switches doesn’t have exposed pins. Meaning, do more researches, invest a lot of time and effort to find a way how to do it.
In the end of the day the question is it worth it?
We all have jobs, and some other things to do. All this requires a lot of time, energy and effort in researching to accomplish what exactly? Put a different firmware on device.
In my point of view it’s less expensive for me to find a product with reasonable price that I can use as I pleased and use it only on my local network.
Majority of devices, and I have around 90 - 100 devices, are local controlled. But not all of them. I have few tuya wifi switches that I plan to trash, two alexas that are using cloud because that is the way they work and nabu casa cloud for remote access.
Always a great solution, IMHO…
Winner, Winner! Lutron uses 434MHz Clear Connect RF. It is incredibly robust, reliable, and quick. Lutron’s Clear Connect RF protocol travels easily through walls and does not conflict with WiFi (2.4/5GHz), Z-Wave (~900Mhz), Zigbee (2.4GHz), Bluetooth (2.4GHz), etc… My entire house is outfitted with Lutron Caseta Switches, Dimmers, Fan Controllers, and Pico Remotes. It ‘just works’ every time!
Also, with Lutron, you’re buying a complete lighting system, not just switches and dimmers. Lutron Caseta integrates easily with Home Assistant, Amazon Alexa, Apple HomeKit, Google Home, Hubitat, SmartThings, Node-RED, Sonos, Ecobee, Logitech Harmony Hub, etc… This is incredible flexibility in terms of its ability to work with a variety of systems.
Similarly, Philips Hue for smart bulbs in table and floor lamps provides similar integration options natively. Yes, Hue bulbs are more expensive, but when paired with a Hue bridge, offer features like native Apple HomeKit integration and the ability to choose how they behave when power is interrupted/restored to them. Philips Hue works with Home Assistant, Amazon Alexa, Apple HomeKit, Google Home, Hubitat, SmartThings, Node-RED, Logitech Harmony Hub, etc…
It is actually quite nice having all of my lighting abstracted from the home automation controller. This provides amazing flexibility when one decides to upgrade hub hardware, try other hubs/software, etc… Not having to walk around the house and re-pair every device with a new ‘hub’ is really convenient.
For Motion sensors, Door/Window Contact sensors, and Water Leak sensors, I use Zigbee devices.
Good luck in whatever you decide!
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A lot of places beside most of the world?
^B In the US, 802.11 operation on channels 12 and 13 is allowed under low power conditions.
List of WLAN channels - Wikipedia
Might be illegal if you blast with 5W on channel 13 in the united states? Well blasting on channel 1 with 5W is probably equally illegal (please proof me wrong if you know better!) 
If one does it’s due diligence before buying you should be able to end up with the esp based devices you want. For example I always contact the seller beforehand and ask if the device (I’m interested in) is based on a esp82xx or esp32. Sometimes they don’t understand so then you can just ask for a picture from the inside/pcb and most seller provide this without hassle. I only once got a batch with some non esp chips after the seller confirmed they have a esp inside. Got full refund on that devices and actually they do work with a esphome using the libretuya fork today 
Also esphome is not limited to esp82xx and esp32’s but now officially supports the rp2040 and a fork exists which makes esphome available for many of this new tuya chips 
https://docs.libretuya.ml/docs/projects/esphome/ (also a pr #3509 exists to get this upstreamed into esphome 
)
Beside like mentioned you can always buy pre-flashed stuff (if it is wled, tasmota or esphome doesn’t matter) because then you know a esp is working inside and flashing a device OTA from tasmota to esphome for example can easily be done
Like mentioned you need to pay more for this “service” of getting a pre-freed device but if one doesn’t want to flash and maybe tinker but a fast win that’s obviously the way to go. 
Many sources exists like dedicated online shops 
but you can also find this pre-flashed/freed devices on amazon or aliexpress. 
So everyone who wants to end up with the “right” devices they can easily. Just randomingly buying any product which writes wifi on it obviusly is a poor choice and ending up with some cloud only stuff with various limitations is expected. 
(the same is true actually for Z devices to my knowledge - while they should always support a minimum set of features they not always do like highlighted in this thread.)
Definitely. Ether way you go (pre flashed with no extra “work” so you have more time for your day job or the cheaper, harder way which will include some manual work). Just think about why you choose home assistant over other closed source solutions with limited functionality. 
Choosing devices which you can control hardware and software wise not only gives your more freedom (extending functionalities the manufacture didn’t include for example) but also allows you updating your devices (and maybe close security vulnerabilities) years or maybe decades later. 
For example Z-Wave device of the line 100,200,300 are vulnerable and there are no fixes from the manufactures. If the *ware would be open I would expect the community would have fixed this already - but as this is proprietary stuff owners of such hardware are just now left with insecure devices in their homes 
In 2022, researchers published several vulnerabilities in the Z-Wave chipsets up to the 700 series,[53] based on an open-source protocol-specific fuzzer.[54] As a result, depending on the chipset and device, an attacker within Z-Wave radio range can deny service, cause devices to crash, deplete batteries, intercept, observe, and replay traffic, and control vulnerable devices. The related CVEs (CVE-2020-9057, CVE-2020-9058, CVE-2020-9059, CVE-2020-9060, CVE-2020-9061, CVE-2020-10137) were published by CERT. [55] Z-Wave devices with 100, 200, 300 series chipsets cannot be updated to fix the vulnerabilities.
Z-Wave - Wikipedia
Ok, my knowledge was a bit outdated there. I found an EU decision from 2003 that streamlined it by 2008. Before 2003 there were a patchwork of rules from country to country.
In EU you are allow 100mW from the radio (not antenna, so signal way between radio and antenna should be kept at a minimum).
And I agree that ESP devices are nice because they are so closely integrated with Home Assistant, but WiFi devices that were talked about generally in this post is not only ESP devices.
ESP do still suffer from in general a lousy antenna and when powered by battery a poor transmit power.
Is it? How comes this limitation? The author of this thread clearly doesn’t ask about “general” wifi devices but actually asks specifically and even mentions esp’s and custom firmware
And if you read along this thread again you will see that I only recommended ESP based wifi devices as others (as with z-technology) you can’t (yet) completely own
Well a (bare) esp doesn’t even have an antenna 
The smallest set you can get with antenna is a module, like the very common (like ~$1 heavy) ESP-12 and indeed there is a (old) revision ESP-12E which is known for a weak antenna performance but this is already replaced by a newer revision (ESP-12F) for years.
Normal WPAx WIFI and battery powered devices doesn’t make much sense imho. But ESP’s are also not limited to WIFI - even with the internal hardware the “classic” esp82xx and esp32’s can transmit long range (low power) via esp-now for example 
It’s not (yet) available in esphome directly but via various custom components, for example from @tomrusteze
In general it’s very interesting to see people here in this thread having “fear” of weak wifi performance or service degradation but at the same time (or because of it) they maybe have no practical experience on that topic. I think there were not even one reference/link which would support claims some users made here 
On the other hand I have no practical experiences with Z-Technology (which I always try to highlight in my posts) because for me they are just out of my comfort zone due to the fact only the hardware can be owned and I can’t improve/change or do whatever I want with this devices. Beside the time I started over 5 years ago with my esp journey other devices with Z in the name were easily 4 to 5 times the price as esp based counterpart.
So as a little summary why @champagj could bet his horses on esp based wifi devices running esphome:
- wide range of devices available and unlimited DIY options
- affordable
- own-able
- extendable
- central management/updates
- perfectly paired with HA using the native api
- longevity (something which is very rare for consumer products!)
Maybe you should highlight this big and fat in every single post you complain about z-protocols, which you do very often, so that people know how to interpret your ‘opinions’ 
Or alternatively, don’t complain about things you know nothing about. Sounds reasonable, don’t you think ?
LOL! 
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To the OP:
As with most questions in Home Assistant, there is rarely one answer. If you ask ten people their recommendations for hardware choices, you will get fifteen correct responses.
My criteria for selecting devices is, in this order:
- No cloud- no exceptions
- Ownable- that is, I can flash my firmware of choice to the device.
- Cheap.
Hmmm. I think I just described WiFi.
For what it’s worth, almost every light in my house is on Home Assistant. There are some Z-wave and a couple of Zigbee lights (Ikea), but my preference is still WiFi. Over the years I have only had one device failure- a Z-wave switch from G.E.
(Of course I’ve smoked a few through mishandling).