Is a wifi only smart home a bad idea?

Configuration
21

Thats what i said 1 IP( 9 Sensors ), so first the ESP handles the signals, then Your IP-Router(s), As i assume Your ESP don’t communicate direct to HA ! ( However i have no experience with DIY-ESP’s (Only those chips which are “build-in” in a few of my Devices( Plugs )

Then You should start reading about WIFI & Zigbee co-existence Network, before considering Zigbee, and/or selling Network Solutions/Services

Right, There is nothing wrong with a good stable IP Network, and based on what you said.

There are diffidently rooms for “improvements” ! , In an IP Network there are a golden rule " What can be wired should be Wired, regardless.
And WIFI cost Usage, alot more than you think, TV’s, 4K Cams in particular

As you say 4 Access Points, all auto, there is basically ( No “Rooms” for zigbee ) .
To what you say, i also then assume you don’t know much, or haven’t “played” with bandwid, or more advanced setting for your wifi ( I.e 5gHz )
Advice:
Wire what can be Wired
“Force” Phones/Laptop/Cams(if supported) to 5gHz frequency, then you will have “Room” for as many IP-Devices ( smaller IOT-Devices , i.e ESP’s ) your 4 AP’s Supports(however those “lives” together/are configured.)

My self i have as most people a mix of WIFI ( 1 wifi-channel ) / Zigbee(2 network/ 2-Zigbee-Channels ) , 5 Bluetooth Device( Not a fan of Bluetooth in HA, on my Phone/Laptops i enable it when i need it ).
This co-exist fine with bunch of 433mHz, and currently just a few of 868 / 922 mhz Devices(Currently not in HA, unfortunately) … Haven’t found a suitable Integration for the WIFI-Hub(Tapo) where these Devices Lives, i Thought i read it was Supported in some Integrations, But apparently that turned out be wrong, and unfortunately still not many people have found this “path” to releave the 2.4ghz frequency
433/868-922 mhz it’s way more stable, better “penetration/coverage”, better signal-strengh etc. Suitedable for Plugs/Switches, Temp/Humid-Sensors etc.

22

If I am understanding correctly, the glue that holds my integrations together is the mqtt server. That is how HA communicates with my tasmota devices.

For what it is worth I do have an BS in IT from 2003 in Miami. One of the reasons for my post was to see if I needed to look more into zigbee or zwave, etc., and seems it is not really necessary, at least not for what I want to accomplish.

I understand the basics of networking. I never had the need to assign channels to my wifis mainly because I never had an issue with my wifis. If it ain’t broken don’t fix it.

To be honest, until recently I felt I wasn’t qualified enough to offer the services I plan to offer, but then I realized that at least here in Mexico often the “experts” have no idea what they are talking about. For example during the pandemic I had a 30 minute argument with one of the reps of one of the major “alarm and video” businesses in Cancun. They claimed they didn’t use any cloud service, but when I asked how I could view my cams out of my house dude kept telling me it was via the cameras app. I wasn’t able to make the “expert” understand that the cameras app works with a CLOUD SERVICE!

I agree that I have lots of opportunity for improvement. My router is OPNsense, so I am good there, but 3 out of my 4 access points are only 2.4ghz, and they all run on 100mbps wired. I only have one wife access that has 1 gig ports and 5g wifi. Most of my network hardware is over 3 years old, and to add insult to injury I think most of them are the cheapest TPlink I could find. Yet I have no connectivity issues.

On the flip I understand that if I get more 4k tvs, and I connect them via wifi, I could quickly start eating up most of my bandwidth and end up with network issues.

But seems everything confirms my thoughts. Wifi keeps changing, keeps getting better, hence hardware needs to be upgraded. When I started getting into HA I noticed that many articles/posts make it seem like zigbee/zwave, etc are essential to have a “good” smart home. I just don’t see the benefits.

1 Like
23

Ok, so that would be, Sensors>ESP>Router(s)>MQTT-Server>Router>HA , or do you have another “Magic Path” ?

WIFI Usage is also a Cost, in the terms that Devices use extra Power- I.E A Smart TV, in Stand-by(Not turned off at wall-switch, consumes about 20W 24/7 ( Regardsless of 4K, or not ) ( Listen for “requests” etc ), If it’s Wired less than 5W, maybe even 2-3W, Cams if not “Local / Blocked in FW” and autoupdate disabled, Listen for/do “requests”, Laptop/PC(with WIFI) same same, so it’s not just a matter Network Usage ( Well beside all requests goes through your Routers/AP’s) , then they also need to handle this WIFI communication. , Usage is also Power ( Energy/Electricity )

Many “reps and sales” does often only know what they been told by their local engineers ( If they found a reason to ask them ), or by reading a spreadsheet/Powerpoint, Like An IKEA assembly manual Level

24

One VERY CLEVER route that Shelly has taken, is that all of their Gen 2 devices that are attached to power already (behind wall switches, smart plugs, etc.) can act as a bluetooth gateway. Then if you have a bunch of them across your setup, turn all of them on as gateways - listening - to - anythiong from Shelly that you also have that is a BLU model (meaning they use only bluetooth). Essentially when you set up a BLU in your ecosystem it pairs with ALL of the gateways as a group. I have several Shelly BLU devices, motion detectors, etc., and they are VERY fast and 100% reliable and their batteries last 5 YEARS… And there is redundancy built in - whichever gateway gets the signal from a BLU device sends it to Home Assistant first - it’s ingenious.

25

Interesting…
as i said elsewhere, i’ve had Shelly BLU door/window and it was pretty unreliable - many times it didn’t report status change when i opened the door, so i’ve had to turn on beacon (sending status every 30 seconds), which caused battery (CR2032) to go down every month or so.

I have Shelly plus plus S for BT proxy (this one works ok) and also a couple of esphome BT proxies.

26

Why are you focusing on this? Just to argue that this is a long, complicated route? It’s actually more straightforward than what you would have for any zigbee device. Because for zigbee it would be:

Sensor>device>a number of other zigbee devices>zigbee gateway>mqtt server>HA.

It’s actually in practice more complicated, because the number of devices in between can change and the whole route may change if you add or remove other devices. Also the network is more complicated if you have multiple devices, each with 1 sensor, versus 1 device with 9 sensors. But you make it seem like it’s the other way around.

But none of this matters.

Where did you get those numbers?

Here they tested some TVs:

Note two things: the 2 biggest brands tested (LG and Samsung) had standby power below 1 W. And there is no mention of wifi at all. Because in practice it didn’t really matter. WiFi connection does not take 20 W on standby. Smart wifi plugs take less than 1W. Sure, it’s a little more than zigbee, but still very very low. If you have a TV that uses 20 W in standby, simply control its power through a plug or a relay.

You are just making things up, because you have some bias against wifi.

1 Like
27

That’s certainly not true in EU, since there are regulations about power consumption under standby mode:

  • since January 2019, devices in networked standby must not consume more than 2 to 8 Watts depending on the product

My 65’ Philips oled has stated 2W under standby. I didn’t measure it, but i can if needed. You must be careful while measuring, though, since TV draws quite some power for a few minutes after turning off with remote (thus enabling quick power on again), only after that goes into deep sleep.

28

No Not to “argue” that it’s a “long,complicated route” ( just “added” info for OP, to understand the communication/transactions functionalaty
I’m Not focusing on that ( You hanged your self up on that )

Scenario 1:

  • 9 Temp Devices reports to a “Controller” ( In this case first step, The ESP “on wifi, could actually also be wired” )
  • The Temperatures of those 9 Don’t Change simultaneously. So what if one/some of these is “Important”, Then you want updates On Every Change !
  • This can happen 2 ways, either the ESP “forwards over wifi” for each individual Sensor, or it “forwards” for ALL, Each time 1 Sensors Temperature Changes
  • IF the ESP handles each Sensors separately, the ESP/NIC has to Queue The Other Sensors ( FIRST Build-In Latency Point )
  • Now You have to decide for your self whether you “need” more knowledge, to understand, OR troubleshoot/optimize your Network, As i really don’t intend to commend this further

( I find it cool that OP build his Own ESP-Circuits , im planning(thinking phase) my self for similar solution for my heating/ventilation system )

Quite ridicules commends , as i nowhere have giving that impression, nor mentioned such. However i do follow few “common sense” rules when building/expanding my Network(s) , And i also test power-consumption on every Device i Include (atleast initially, for weeks/month), as i don’t go out and buy power-measure-devices for everything

My suggestion/advises to OP, was/is based upon his Topic, and NOWHERE i advice him to go for other “Typologies/Protocols” ( Beside wire what can be wired ) , I gave him ideas to Improve his Current Network, As im sure he can keep his current “Setup/Hardware” for many yeas ahead, without buying new products.

( Apparently you belive WIFI & Zigbee ) is comparable in the way they Communicate, likewise as don’t read(or try to understand what you read)
( Yes i should have mentioned " Up to i.20W " ( Instead of “About” )However that doesn’t change the fact, that Various Tests you can find online, is done in a “Shielded/Clean” environment, and Not in Multiple “average” Homeusers Environments, With I:E Multiple AP’s And Tons of Other WIFI Sharing Device (Sharing the “signal-space”)
And yes i can “show” other Tests performed by Random People/orgs, but that ‘s not the point, TV’s, Cams, Whatever on WIFI, And therefore Also the Router, Consumes more Energy Handling WIFI Traffic, Compared to Running on/ Handling Traffic Through TP-Cables, In Specific If it’s a Chocked WIFI Network, with Lots of i.e WIFI’/n/ac/ax, And even /g Devices.
Device have to “queue” in any data-transfer-topology, packets get “lost”, timeouts/waits occurs etc etc (Common sense)

29

Since we’re discussing the number of steps in the path from sensor to HA, why add MQTT?

Not that I’m against it, but if you want to minimize “hops,” most devices have a direct HA integration. You can skip the extra hardware and software, not to mention the learning curve and ongoing maintenance of yet another platform.

Again, not saying this is how it should be done, just that, so far, I’ve managed to get by quite well without MQTT. One less thing to host, to update and to fix.

1 Like
30

That’s a surprisingly short battery life for one broadcast every 30 seconds. Similar products last 16 months with a broadcast once every second. It sounds like there is something else draining your battery.

Or maybe I am not understanding what the Shelly is doing in beacon mode?

31

Well, in device’s manual it does say that enabling beacon reduces battery life. What it does? I assume that it sends all data as if device would be triggered with magnet… i agree, it’s odd, since i have quite some number of xiaomi BLE thermometers and their’s batteries last up to 1 year…perhaps shelly’s transmit power is bigger…
Ok, perhaps i overreacted a bit…i’d say 1-2 months, but still way too short. It wasn’t some expensive battery, but batteries you can buy in stores like hofer, lidl, ikea…but still too short. And it was original shelly, not bought in china, so it’s not fake, only option is that it’s faulty…

32

Either you don’t take in consideration your Own Network Topology, and Surrounding factors, But as you also mention, there are differences in the various products, Brand vs Brands, FW/HW Versions vs FW/HW versions, And ofcause single “faulty” Devices, How long they are from Coordinators/AP’s etc( Standard Interference Factors )

Referring to a “Regulation” is hardly a “relevant” factor to refer to, when it comes to Real-Life scenarios ! , Neither are a “Manual” for that matter

33

Regulations must be followed regardless of “your Own Network Topology”.

34

And Im Sure the Companies does, “follow” these “Regulations” ( Referring to a specific approved Test ) , othervice they are not allowed to sell their product in EU.

Which they btw also will refers to, When You or other random person, claims ( that “Your Device” uses more Power than the “Manual/Specs” says. ( Or You can’t get the Speed the claims,etc )
And believe it or not, they will just tell you to “Check Your WIFI and IP Network, for Issues , And Interference Factors” … end of story, each Installation is a " Individual Real Life Scenario "
Some People don’t get it, others Do

35

You haven’t even bothered finding and reading the directive, yet you insist on arguing? That’s enough for me, not going to waste my time.

2 Likes
36

I Didn’t brought the “directive up” e, i couldn’t care less about a “Regulations/Directives”, My points/facts is based upon real-life-scenarios AND issues reported i.e here in the Forum
I.E Why do i have so high CPU-load, Why are my WIFI Slow, Why do my Batteries only last 2 month etc. etc… ALL Facts the “variate” from Product/solution/brand descriptions, AND Regulations/Directives

Why should i even bother to read something a random person referring to (without source), when it has nothing to do with a real-life-scenario.
You are not wasting your time, You are wasting my time

What do you seriously Saying/Meaning ? , sounds like a Company can be responsible for my, Or Yours FU’s … oh yes, I’ve heard this many times, even in here…

37

Sorry it took so long, but i was doing measurements …
Currently my TV draws so little that my shelly plus plug s can’t even detect, so it’s under 1W. So, well inside regulations, agreed?
Yes, i CAN make TV not to turn off to such low consumption. I can choose when: after xy hours in android settings - from 15 minutes to 24h or “never” (in that case consumption is some 15W), if i wish, but i must do that intentionally, and i really don’t know what i’d gain with it…

38

The regulations are about transmitted power into the “air”, not a device’s power consumption. Signal power, in other words.

39

Actually, the regulations we were talking about are about the whole device consumption. They do not only affect devices with antennas.

There are separate regulations limiting the power of transmissions, yes, but it’s a different thing.

2 Likes