@turboc How do you come to the conclusion that appdaemon requires python 3.5?
I moved appdaemon to a docker container that is based on python 3.6.1 and so far it seems to work. The “Hello” dashobard opens up without errors in browser or backend.
From talking to the developer about it 
I was in that thread, too. LOL
AD may for the most part work but it has not been vetted yet. I remember Andrew mentioning he has it on the list but has to set up a test environment first.
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I have an app that throws clock skew messages repeatedly under 3.6. I put appdaemon in a 3.5 virtual environment and it runs like a champ. The developer and I are working on it. For the most part though everything else I ran under 3.6 with appdaemon worked great. But it is not fully tested under 3.6.
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@turboc So you inspired me in a somewhat different way. After the umpteenth update crash, I decided to install from scratch rather than Hasbian or AIO. I installed a Jessie image, installed 3.6 and HA. No virtualenv. My install, beginning to end took about an hour, mostly because I needed to make startup scripts and do the niggly things that get done for you with a script. And compiling Python 3.6. Once I moved my configuration to the new install, everything just magically worked again.
I don’t understand the need for the virtual install on a dedicated device and for most users, I don’t think the added complexity is worth it. Quite honestly, I think many of the issues in these forums, come from the virtualenv install and the confusion surrounding it. I think for a developer, it is an absolute necessity. For someone with a complex environment where you may need different versions of Python, sure. For a general purpose server, maybe. In my opinion, it hurts easy deployment on simple hardware for the average user and it would be worth re-evaluating the need. I just hope I don’t prove myself wrong!
I can see some of your points, but personally I’ve never had an issue that ended up relating to being in a VENV, myself.
I figure as long as there are other interesting github projects out there that may enhance or upgrade HA in some way, it allows me to use them without any concerns about differing dependencies. That’s the main selling point for me; I’m not a dev but I do an awful lot of testing and design/feature ideas for other devs here. Using VENVs keeps my blood pressure low. LOL
You are right. For a simple install where all you have on that server is HA, no problem. Here is where the benefit comes in. Because of one of my Appdaemon apps, I have to run AD under python 3.5 for now. So I needed an 3.6 environment for HA and a 3.5 environment for AD. Python virtual environments let me do that.
To my simplistic mind, python virtual environments are nothing but a directory structure and a script that sets your path to look for python and libraries in that directory structure. To me, activate just sets your path and environment variables for that virtual environment. I haven’t done this, but it might be interesting to compare the virtual environments of HA under a virtual environment with ha under a virtual environment for a different version of python. I bet the differences are pretty few.
@rpitera @turboc You two are certainly the exceptions and I absolutely understand it’s value. I do think simple wins for most situations and for most users. In many ways, I regret compiling Python 3.6. I should have waited for it to be a package, installable with apt. I have been a full-time Linux user for the past 25 years and have been through times where almost everything you installed had to be compiled, fixed, cleaned, recompiled. You had to find all the dependencies and often times compile them as well. It might be fun for the first 20 years but at some point you want things to be repeatable and I have had to reinstall HA a dozen times if not more.
Perhaps all of this is moot with hass.io.
LOL,
You just described accidentally going to a DEV release of HA like I did last night. UUUGH, finally got back to the current release around midnight.
I know what you mean about playing with things till they work. It’s to the point that I have scripts I run every time I do a HA upgrade to clean up the packages that don’t get installed correctly. I’ve asked a couple of times if the Devs could dedicate a release to fixing the install process so it work, but never got any traction on it. It would go a long way if they didn’t delete the deps directory every time they do an install. 
What I’ve started doing is waiting till the week after a release has been released to do the upgrade. That way there is usually a .1 or .2 out and the major issues have been worked out. That makes it a lot less painful for me.
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Waiting for the .1 release is a great tip for everyone and always recommend that for people. Sadly I seldom follow that advice.
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Yea, if we all did that, then we would have to start waiting for the .2 release because no one would test out the .0 release. But that’s something I learned back in the old Dos and Windows days. Never go with a .0 it’s full of bugs. LOL
I was actually an official Microsoft beta tester starting with DOS 3.1 Great fun. I remember some of the Windows 95 beta’s came in packages every week or so with something like 25 3.5 inch floppies. If you found bugs, they shipped out another lump of floppies to test their fix. Lots of swapping.
I still have my two t-shirts from Win95 beta testing! Memories…
(Actually fit in them too.)
Fitting in one would be a memory for me. They must be worth millions by now. Antiques Roadshow??
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Only to old guys like us. Although, the MS logo shirt is the old classic logo, there might be a secondary nerd market for it. 
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After you mentioned the t-shirt, I went looking to see if I might still have one. Can’t seem to spot one. I remember white with maybe a logo in the middle, and maybe a medium light blue with a breast logo. Something on the back??? Memory going.
I was more on the Novell side. I had a small company writing NLM’s for the servers for a while. Made just enough to support my habit. My computer habit that is.
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I haven’t thought about Netware for a long time. We did support Netware for a few companies in the early 90’s. I remember predicting that TCP/IP would fade away.
Is this a few rocking chairs on the front porch?
LOL, I remember 22 years ago, my first day at my current company, I installed winsock for them so they could access their SAP system.
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I’ve got one out there, you are welcome to come by anytime.