Question on the recomended setup

[NTech (NTech Maker)]

Hey there,

I just learned about HA few days ago and I’m addicted haha.

I used to do commercial HVAC controls, we would make the panels, install all sensors, wire, build graphics for the front end and connect all the points. This was over 10 years ago and I forgot most of the stuff I knew lol

I have a property I manage with about 4 houses on it, they are all pretty much right next to each other. The owners already have the unifi mesh system all around the property.

These houses are almost in a remote area. No other wiif connections appear when searching.

What I did so far was just fire up the Raspberry PI and added some random smart devices I had around the house. I got the google mini and few philips light bulbs working… Just getting those 2 things to work got me excited and hooked =)

I’m here to see if I can get any recommendations on a proper setup from any long term users of HA. I don’t want to start in the wrong direction and 3 months from now hit some kind of limit or issues I could have foreseen by just checking with this amazing community =)

I will be setting this up for the home owners, I live on the property so its a perfect place for me to learn all the bugs and figure out how to set it all up. So I will be treating it more as a commercial setup than some just DIY fun. This is where I’m confused on the best devices, sensors, cameras etc… to use with HA.

I want to start small but be able to expand as needed.

I would like to do the following stuff, not all at once but just a general list.

• lights/switches
• cameras
• stuff like leak detectors, motion sensors, temp sensors, door locks
• hook monitoring on the electrical break panels
  -i guess pretty much anything I can automate. I want to try hahah =)

The home owners would be paying for all the stuff. I was told they could save at least 20k a year in insurance cost if they had some kind of system that has stuff like cameras, door sensors installed… This place is like a bed & breakfast, so I guess that is why the insurance is high and they require extra steps. So I’m not looking for the cheapest end devices by also not looking to just waste money on name brand devices if the off brand is just as good.

Sorry for the long article. I just jumped into this 1000000% and now kinda stalled because I’m not sure what is the best way to start.

thanks for reading.

[WallyR (Wally)]

@NTech

I used to do commercial HVAC controls

And why do you then have no heating controls in your list?

I would not recommend battery powered devices, when you can not get access to the device at all times.
It would also be wisest to get devices that do not alter the normal way things work, so a switch should still work as before when it have been smartified and preferable also still when HA is down for some reason.

Which of WiFi, Zigbee or Zwave is the best is harder to say.
All three techs can become unresponsive and require access to the device to get it to start communicating again.

[Tinkerer (aka DubhAd on GitHub)]

I’d recommend Z-Wave and Zigbee over WiFi any day.

1. Most WiFi devices are designed with a cloud service at the heart of things, so you become reliant on your Internet connection/that cloud service.
2. Battery life for WiFi sensors sucks.

Zigbee is cheaper than Z-Wave, but Z-Wave is more mature (and an actual standard, so things work together reliably). If you go with Zigbee you’ll save money (potentially quite a bit) but need to do a bit more work to ensure all the brands work together.

I started with Z-Wave but now have only Zigbee, with a mix of (mostly) Xiaomi augmented by a bunch of Terncy, Linkind, Develco/Frient, Gledopto, Hue, and Ikea (Tradfri).

For cameras anything that supports RTSP and/or ONVIF is a good bet. You can get by with cheap (wired) cameras from the likes of AliExpress or buy some quality Dahua, HikVision, Amcrest (cheap Dahua rebrand) or HiWatch (cheap HikVision).

@WallyR

It would also be wisest to get devices that do not alter the normal way things work, so a switch should still work as before when it have been smartified and preferable also still when HA is down for some reason.

I’ll second this. Apply POLA - the house should work like any normal house, just smarter. That means no/few smart bulbs and more smart dimmers/switches (for instance).

[MaxK (Mark)]

I always like to refer folks to this thread.

Starting fresh - Show me what you wish you'd known when you started?

After a couple of power failures, some bulbs losing their config and HA not being available for a while I’m going to take the opportunity to start again, from a fresh, clean install of the latest and greatest version of Home Assistant. I have available to me: Zigbee lights Zigbee sockets WiFi plug sockets zwave sockets Zigbee door sensors z-wave PIRs Sonos Eufy doorbell. UK smart meter & Octopus energy Solar panels Zappi car charger ESPHome based alarm interface With that kind of thing in mi…

And please have a backup strategy that you have tested (you can prove you can recover from a backup). And the backup is not on the Raspberry PI. Something like this:

Add-on: Home Assistant Google Drive Backup

Home Assistant Google Drive Backup [image] About I’ve authored an add-on to serve as a complete solution for creating backups in Home Assistant and synchronizing them in Google Drive. In particular it: Automatically creates new backups on a configurable schedule. Uploads any backups it finds to Google Drive. Automatically cleans up old backups in Home Assistant and Google Drive. Integrates with Home Assistant Notifications, and provides sensors you can trigger off of if something goes wro…

[stevemann (Stephen Mann (YAML-challenged))]

This is the most eloquent way I’ve seen this question asked.
But my answer is all the same.
Ask any ten people here what they recommend and you will get fifteen correct answers- all different.

I have all of the possible protocols working in my home. The only failure I have had was a G.E. Z-Wave switch. 90% of the devices in my home are on WiFi. Any additions will be from Athom.

Some points to consider.

• Will the insurance companies approve a DIY alarm system for a rate reduction?
• Who owns and manages the WiFi mesh network? If your system is dependent on WiFi this might be an issue.
• What is the siting of the homes? Distance will be an issue with Z-Wave and Zigbee since they make their own mesh networks. Since you have an existing WiFi mesh, then this would not be an issue with WiFi devices.

For your description I would probably use Z-wave switches and sensors if the distance between houses is not a problem. I have most recently been buying [Zooz] (PRODUCTS – ZOOZ) switches. However, managing Z-Wave networks is an art into itself. If money were an issue I would buy WiFi gear. My experience with Zigbee has been limited, but for battery powered devices you can’t beat the Zigbee sensors. A CR2032 coin cell will last a year or more.

Later, unless you want to go gold now, I would not use the Raspberry Pi. I started with the Pi and after the third time I had an SD failure, I bought an Intel NUC and installed the binary for the NUC. It has been rock solid for a few years, but I still do a nightly backup to an NAS. Yes, you can use any old 64-bit PC or laptop, but there is something to be said of the professional look of a small computer server mounted on the wall in the basement.

Last. Avoid anything that requires a cloud connection or manufacturers hub.

[EdwardTFN (Edward Firmo)]

@NTech

I just learned about HA few days ago and I’m addicted haha.

Hahahaha
We all know how it is.

Welcome!!

[boheme61]

@NTech

What I did so far was just fire up the Raspberry PI

@NTech

I don’t want to start in the wrong direction and 3 months from now hit some kind of limit

Beside all the good advice, and various experience you’ll find in here, i suggest first step is looking at your PI , If you have a sd-card, immediately switch to SSD, with ease access to backup ( so you don’t “loose” your work “settings/conf/Yaml’s” etc ) thou, “Starting over” is most likely a mandatory experience

[WallyR (Wally)]

@Tinkerer

gbee is cheaper than Z-Wave, but Z-Wave is more mature

You can not say Z-wave is more mature than ZigBee.
Z-Wave is regulated by a strict certification process in order to be allowed to use the name. This makes the devices more expensive but also more compliant and compatible.
ZigBee is mature but the more open standard will always mean more products available but also always issues with compliancy and comparability.

[WallyR (Wally)]

@stevemann

Yes, you can use any old 64-bit PC or laptop, but there is something to be said of the profession

A laptop have the added benefit of a built-in UPS, which might be nice here.

[stevemann (Stephen Mann (YAML-challenged))]

@boheme61

immediately switch to SSD, with ease

The OP didn’t say which Pi he was using. Switching a Pi3 or earlier is not easy to switch. Rev 1 of the Pi4 also needs some fuse manipulation. A new Pi 4 can be easily set up for SSD booting.

[stevemann (Stephen Mann (YAML-challenged))]

@WallyR

A laptop have the added benefit of a built-in UPS, which might be nice here.

That’s a valid excuse for using an old laptop, but my old laptops battery life is best measured in seconds, and the cost of new batteries is approaching the cost of a used NUC.

I have an atypical server farm in my basement:

4 NUCs and a Raspberry Pi3.

My NUCs are for Home Assistant, Plex, NAS and Mediawiki servers. Yes, I KNOW, so stop reminding me, that I could do all of those functions on one NUC i7 and reduce my power footprint. But I am not a fan of VMs and the complexity they introduce. Besides, if I am having a problem with one of the programs, I don’t have to shut down everything.

The Raspberry Pi is my MQTT broker. I keep that because I was using MQTT on Node Red before discovering Home Assistant, and too many of my WiFi devices have the broker IP hard coded.

You can’t see it but there is a 350 Watt UPS to the left with the power bricks.

[WallyR (Wally)]

@stevemann

my old laptops battery life is best measured in seconds, and the cost of new batteries is approaching the cost of a used NUC.

The trick is to not use old laptops, but use laptops with a broken touch screen.
Broken touch screens are extremely expensive to replace, so often you can get an otherwise perfectly good modern laptop for very few coins. You just have to make sure that you can access the BIOS somehow. Either by still seeing somewhat on the broken screen or by connecting an external monitor. Some vendors will only use the built-in screen, so an external monitor is then not an option.

[boheme61]

Ok, i have no experience of PI , It’s just based on what i’ve read in here , i use old laptops my self … and currently as you trying to decide which and how, to reduce power footprint, having 3 laptops running basically idling seems pointless. past days i’ve tried Proxmox, but i feel it gives me more “work” and headache, than VMware in windows , beside there is no Power gain running Proxmox, and in terms of HA performance i doubt there will be any gains, as it’s not a high performance software. most “performance” seems to be needed on the network-topology as i.e WIFI Cams etc seems to generate traffic, AND most of all what i’ve noticed lately, Traffic to HA-Instance regardless if you have the Cams in a “open” Card etc … As long as you just have the cams “integrated” the network-interface is “cluttered” with traffic to the Device-entities … which starting to bother me

[NTech (NTech Maker)]

Thanks to all the replies and sorry for the delay in replying back. I guess WallyR jinxed me because I have been dealing with heating issues and leaky pipes ever since at a few projects. I guess heating and leak detection should be first on my list haha

I agree on the battery operated devices. When I was in hvac controls everything was hard wired directly to the controller.

Totally makes sense about the switches working as normal in case any of the home automation stuff is down.

I did buy a battery operated motion sensor and alarm switch to just test out using the USB stick I got from amazon. I was able to get both of these reading which was exciting.

I attached some photos, ignore my setup being on the bar sinks table lol. The routers are right next to it =)

[NTech (NTech Maker)]

Hey Tinkerer,

Thanks for taking the time to reply. I appreciate your input. Coming from hvac controls field, we would have problems with sensors when they were wired. I could only imagine the headaches with wireless stuff and interference. We used shield wiring for some devices back then and still would get issues with sensors reading. This is why i never liked Wireless devices. I guess I’m old school.

I don’t have wire runs from one house to the next house. I was thinking if I was going to go the hard wired method. I could make a panel in each house for the inputs/outputs and wire my sensors/devices to there. I have 5 RaspberyPi 4 just sitting doing nothing. So I’m not sure if that would be the best method.

HA setup in all the houses. Control panel in each house for the wired sensors/cameras/etc… Then see if the HA can all talk to each other via the WIFI. I guess that part could go down if there is Wifi issues but each house should still function standalone with their wired devices.

The 4 hours are on the same property and not far from each other. I could maybe run a CAT6 cable between each house to connect it all. I’m not sure if any of that is needed. Sorry if I’m going all over the place lol.

Some stuff I guess I would have no choice but to go battery operated. I wanted some motion sensors by the front driveway entrance but there is no source of power there or a clean way to run wire without digging holes.

Thanks again for taking the time to reply. I’m sure I will have more questions and overtime I hope I can contribute to this amazing community

[NTech (NTech Maker)]

Hi MaxK,

Thanks for reply and the extra links. I just clicked them and bookmarked them to do my nighttime reading in bed when I cant sleep and I’m thinking about automation haha.

Big thanks for the backup recommendation. Back in my HVAC control days I would have backups for the backups and backups for their great great great grandchildren backups lol. I would have so many backups and then I would be scared to delete any of them because you just never know when something will go wrong and even backups fail. So I like to have backups for backups. Thanks again for this suggestion.

[NTech (NTech Maker)]

Thanks Steven for taking the time to reply. I totally hear you about the the correct answers haha. One minute I was reading a forum post where it says NEVER use ZIGBEE devices and then I see another saying it’s the best thing since sliced cheesed hahah…

So I totally understand every setup will be unique and so many different factors can come in where the same device can work amazing on a farm but you take it to grand central station and it doesn’t work =)

-Good question, I will have to find out. I think the owners need 2 systems really. The one that insurance company really cares about I think is the fire alarm panel on the property and they already have some kind of monitoring on that system but I don’t think its good.

• I have never worked on the UNI mesh system, so ignore any of my silly question regarding this =). I think it was just setup and left as is on the property. I see the UNI devices upstairs where I plugged in my Raspberry PI 4. I think I should have all the admin passwords to access the admin section of the network and make any changes I need.

-I was going to take a tape measure out and draw the property to upload on here before replying to you but I didn’t get a chance. It basically goes House 1 - Small Barn - Big Barn - House 2 - Another Barn. All these have the WIFI reaching them from the UNI network.

If I had to guess House 1 is maybe 200 feet from the Small Barn.
Small barn could be 300 feet from the Big Barn.
Big Barn to House 2 is maybe 50 feet.
Then from House 2 to another barn is the longest with maybe 400-feet.

Would it be recommended to have the HA device in each of the house and then let them communicate with each other via the WIFI or maybe I could run just one CAT6 cable between them all or it doesn’t work that way?

-Thanks for the information on the Raspberry PI. I only went with that method because I have 5 of them laying around doing nothing and I figured to use them to just get the hang of this. I would like to build my own little server box and mount it on the wall. So I totally understand your feeling on this =)

[NTech (NTech Maker)]

Thanks, excited to be here. I can’t wait to see what I can do with this and all the headaches I will get and then the relief when I finally figure it out lol

[NTech (NTech Maker)]

Hey Boheme61,

Thanks for the suggestion. I did watch some quick youtube videos the first night and I did order the SSD card, adapter, some kinda of cooling box for it.

I have been at the point of Starting Over a few times back in my control days. I prefer backups for the backups now hahah.

My PI is also sitting on the LCD screen that I was using it for something else before I dumped HA on iut

[NTech (NTech Maker)]

Sorry I did forget to mention this. Its the PI 4 but I don’t have the exact version, I’m not near it now to check. I do have the SSD drive working on it.