I’ve been using Insteon for many years and don’t really have a problem with it but moved recently and left much of the hardware behind so I’m not really sure I want to re-purchase Insteon. Have been considering zwave and the zwave-js integration.
Probably start with a Zooz 800 long range USB stick and a few door contacts etc. I see in the docs that HA doesn’t currently support the zwave LR protocol. This makes me question how many extenders I’m likely to need. I know this is hard to estimate but I’m hoping someone can give me a rough idea. My HA unit is located in a laundry room on the east side of my house. The first zwave devices I’ll be installing will be in a separate building on the west side of the house. The signal will need to travel through 3 sheetrock walls with a distance of about 40 feet and an open space between buildings of about another 40 feet. I had originally planned to install an extender at the half way point on the west wall of the house and see if that would work but if HA doesn’t support zwave long range I’m wondering if I may need more extenders to pass the signal through the house? Or perhaps zwave isn’t an option if the signal won’t cover the open space between buildings (no place to install an extender)?
Would appreciate any comments on the best way to do this.
Ha does support ZWLR with an appropriate 800 stick and joining through QR code.
For standard ZWave the spec ‘says’ 100 ft.
But because walls, floors, dogs, people, water, air and things… You never get that range. My realistic range is more like 50/60 ft. Therefore I use 25’ between powered nodes. (battery nodes do NOT repeat)
Install more powered nodes than you think.
And I’m worried about that run with the three walls. It will be problematic.
I moved from Insteon to Zwave in 2014 and have no regrets. All (or practically all) non-battery Zwave devices extend the signal. If you don’t want use Zwave wall switches then think about adding a few plug-ins like this or similar. Place these along the way between the HA Zwave hub and the devices that you want to use and you should have an issue.
I have some 60 Zwave devices and my Zwave mesh network is (close to) perfect, but you don’t need that many devices. 40 ft should not be an issue but of course the more walls or furniture in the route, the more chances that you have an issue. But as mentioned with a few plug-in (or wall switches) devices, you should be ok.
Adding more extenders inside the house isn’t really an issue but it’s the 40 or 50 feet between buildings that concerns me. There isn’t anywhere between the buildings to add any device. If zwave can’t cover the space I may need to stick with Insteon since it uses mains power in addition to rf to transmit signals.
I get it. One possibility would be to place the Zwave hub as close in the middle of these buildings as practical. In the past I connected by HA hub to a secondary pod of my Xfinity wifi router so as to have it in the center of my home.
Just to be sure I’m understanding, there is a process to add zwave devices and they will be supported at their full range? I’m looking at Zooz ZAC38 extenders that claim a range of 400 feet. Obviously I’ll never come close to that probably but I would think 100 feet outdoors would easily be possible. Am I being overly optimistic? Or perhaps HA supports 800 series devices but not the extra range?
There’s nothing in the middle of the buildings except grass. I live on a farm and use HA primarily for monitoring all the buildings on the property. Greenhouse, work rooms, sheds, etc. I use mostly esphome devices currently. They just need WiFi so get pretty good range but I have one building where I want to get smoke detectors and door contacts working again and thought zwave might be interesting.
Please confirm this setup will be in the US? Z-wave in Europe would have different recommendations.
The newer Z-wave Long Range standard uses a hub and spokes model, where all device connections are made directly to the controller (eg Zooz 800LR USB stick). There are no extenders needed or possible when using LR.
The older (but still very good) Z-wave standard uses a mesh model where devices talk to each other and find the best path back to the controller. This is where plug-in devices and/or range extenders act as part of the mesh and can improve the reach for more distant devices.
A single 800-series controller stick works great with both standard and LR protocols. However those two networks are independent and don’t interact with each other. So any given device is on one or the other.
For your situation, this means, unfortunately, you can’t use LR to bridge your long gap and then have a mesh of other devices on the other side. But it should mean that if you’re able to use LR for all of your “far away” devices you should probably be ok. Definitely start with one or two, and see how well they connect to your hub before doing a full buildout.
I understand. What I actually meant was that you put the hub in the main building, near the window that is closest to the other building.
Unfortunately I have no magic solution with regards to Zwave. Another possibility and that is what I have done with my private garage in my condo building that is 31 floors my own condo, is to use Tuya Wifi devices.
The Tuya devices in my garage are on a different wifi but in the same Tuya account. With those devices in the same Tuya account that is in my HA, I can ‘read’ and control those garage devices in my HA.
It is complicated and would require wifi access in your secondary building, but I’m trying to be helpful.
As I tried to explain above, LR does not use any hops. It is 100% direct from controller (stick) to device (switch, etc.). There are no extenders or hops when using LR. But the range of LR is much longer than standard Z-wave (which does use hops when needed.)
Nope - sorry. LR does not use any hops - all communication is directly to and from the controller. Only “standard” (ie non-LR) Z-wave uses hops when necessary as devices communicate to each other to find the optimal path back to the controller (this is what a mesh is.)
Here is a portion of my Z-wave network. The purple lines are the ones set up using Long Range. They all communicated directly with the controller.
The green (good signal) and orange (fair signal) are my non-LR devices. As you can see, some use mesh (e.g. the Towel Warmer and Bedroom Lamp connect back to the controller via the Bedside Light.)
It can extend standard ZWave. 800 chips are fully backwards compatible and can do standard Or LR…
… Just not at the same time.
And for the standard. Yes you are being overly optimistic. Like I said before I’ve NEVER succefully got more than 60 feet reliably, and why I use 25’ for planning. 40 is easy. 50 probably. Even 60 or 70. Beyond that on standard. You’re sketchy.
Also remember you DO NOT want just one route. If you only have one valid standard route an the repeater dies…
So does everything else on the end of the repeater chain. So consider that in your planning. Sounds like you MIGHT be successful with LR for that link but… Standard. Eh.
Do you have network out there? Another possibility is a network based coordinator out at the outbuilding?
I want to make sure I’m not coming across as negative about LR. Your situation seems like it should be ideal for it. The significantly longer range of LR means it should likely work for your remote buildings right off the bat. Of course, you’d need to get a stick (the Zooz 800 LR is a good one) and an initial LR device and install them to verify, given your particular environment.
Yeah, I understand. The problem will be that the total distance between the hub and the device will be 80 to 100 feet with something like 5 walls in between. I’m not optimistic that LR could handle that.
I’ve contacted Zooz tech support to find out about what the expected range of the 800 series range extenders is when they’re not in LR mode. They list the line of sight range as 400 feet but I’m not sure if that’s true for all use cases. If it is I’m sure two of them could easily bridge the gap between buildings.
