(Re)-Starting from Scratch - how to make every power cable smart?

Hey All,

I’m looking for some second opinions. I’m living in a house from the 30s in Germany. I have to redo most of the wiring - the electrician already had a first look. We’ll make a detailed plans soon but it’s already certain that most of the cabling has to be redone.

Now I try to see this as an opportunity - I’d like to be able to control everything with my beloved Home Assistant, not just the couple of smart HUE bulbs and the DIY stuff I have now. My first thought was to simply putting Fibaro Z-Wave relays throughout the house as this seems to be quite a good cost/benefit on paper.
As this will be by far my biggest project yet I’m looking for some better/other ideas, second opinions and “I did it this way” - input :slight_smile:

Money is still a factor of course, so KNX or something like that for several kEur is completely out of the question.

Oh and one more question: What would/do you guys use as switches? The ones I found were either quite expensive (e.g. Busch-Jaeger) or look out of place for a permament installation (e.g. Ikea Tradfri)

Thanks!

I personally fitted lightwaverf wall switches, the idea being they can still be used manually like regular switches. This is in case failure of any component (internet, HA, router, etc)
Also means nobody is going to “fiddle” with a normal / dumb wall switch in case of smart bulbs that need to be constantly fed with power.

Only issue I have is that it’s a one way comm only so I can’t get the status of the switch. (The Gen 2 does that but they’re really expensive). Also means I can only switch on/off or dim, there’s no way to set a colour like on smart bulbs, but for normal room lights it’s my preferred option

I would say that as long as you run power, neutral and ground to every switch box you can then decide st a future time which platform meets your needs. The lack of a neutral always seems to be the limiting factor on almost every installation.

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Don’t rule out KNX, Mobus, CBUS, HDL until you take a look at their ecosystems. The parts are while a little more expensive are prosumer quality and you have
100s of brands to select from, all supporting thier chosen protocol.

KNX is an excellent choice, personally I have CBus but would on a redo use KNX, simply as it’s the largest system in Europe. My CBus is now 10 years old and has been flawless. I can not repeat that for any wireless technology I have touched and replaced in that same period.

Each technology has a use, I personally use Zwave currently for TRV and misc sockets like holiday lights. But the core of the install will be wired

One tip, on all prosumer products I have installed the power runs are direct, from panel to destination, with live neutral and earth, linked to each target in that circuit, for example 2 ceiling pendants. Switching happens in the source panel buy the chosen kit.

For the control, this is essentially CAT5 with a high UL rating for power shield and fire, using 2 pairs twisted to run the power and bus, deployed as one or two loops to every point in the house you want a control module like a button panel for example.

If you follow this one practice this should serve as a good foundation for most deployment you will undertake, and if you select to just use consumer kit you should still be ok, for example the power to the clienling would be connected to a breaker as set on but the control could possibly be now installed at the pendant depending on the tech selected.

I would flag the devices that are critical like lights as must work 100% of time, including after a power outage as real considerations for prosumer targets.

The size of the home and budget will be very relevant in planning this.

If I can help share more depth. Just ask I have been certified in CBus, KNX, Control 4 etc at various points in history and overseen a number of installs for pro services. It’s not my day job however.

Damian.

Thank you guys for the input!
The reason why I’m trying to plan a bit ahead is that I already know that I’ll have switches on places where it would be a pain in the ass to run cables to, for example a lengthy but very small staircase where I’d love to have four switches - two of which control only half of the stairs, rest everything.

@DamianFlynn this sounds really interesting - I have ruled out KNX because it looked like a way too expensive for my quite small house (think 100 sqm). My first look at KNX seemed like I have to replace pretty much everything in addition to using their propitiatory software for the initial setup and it adds up.

Actually the reason why I looked into the relays was my attempt to come as close as possible to the cable-based versions as possible.
It’s especially charming to me to be able to keep most of the dumb light bulbs and all power outlets and still be able to control them at least on a per-room basis.

The setup you described seems to be quite close to how I’d like to set it up (cables running from the breaker box into some kind of controller units and from there to the rooms).
Only difference is that I’m not knowledgeable enough about the implications in terms of cabling / bus installations / units to get an idea of the true costs.

Perhaps you can give me a pointer on where I can educate myself more, especially in terms of cost/benefit for the different systems? Z-Wave had the charm of keeping my budget way below 1k Eur for the initial installation and I’d be at least able to control all lights and power outlets per-room.

Thanks!

Ok, 1K is going to be very hard, cable alone you will need to be purchasing from an electric supplier to get trade discount.

You need a list of every light circuit, the number of points on that circuit and if it will be switched, dim, or RGB. (Switched been least expensive, and all points on the circuit would be controlled as 1, so for example 4 GU10 spots in the roof of the kitchen)

Wall sockets, I assume you will leave alone, but if not then 13A in normal loop circuit and no automation, use Zwave or other dongles for Christmas trees etc, kettle if you wish etc). For sockets you know will be dedicated to lamps, the. Home run these the same as the roof lights but use 5A sockets (small round pin instead of the 13a BS sockets) that is to ensure you don’t plug in the vacuumed or hair dryer into a wrong point and possibly blow the triac or relay on the panel.

If your 1000 Euro is just for lighting then you can use the list you have created to count the circuits. CBUS offers 12 channel relay packs for about 450euro, and 8 channel dimmer packs for similar cost, software is free, KNX would be similar, but software for program is not free, though they do offer massive discounts about 2 times a year, (or have a KNX Guy program for you). CBus, and KNX need a bridge to connect with the automation so many choices here, common options are CGate for CBus, and for KNX TP1 network via any gateway or KNX router with IP Unicast support: Jung IPS 100/200 REG, Jung IPR 100/200 REG, Evika Logic Machine 2, 3, Reactor, Weinzierl KNX IP BAOS 770/771/772, ABB, Siemens, Gira, etc.

To help aid an illustration, my own system for lighting has a CBus network which includes the Gateway, Automation Controller, about 30 Switch Pads (2,4 and 6 button layout), 2 x 12 channel relay packs and 6 x 8 channel 1A dimmer packs and 2 x 4 channel 2A dimmer packs. All in this system is 100% self sufficient and can deal with power failures just like a normal system. All dimmer packs are trailing edge as that helps a lot with low current loads, and use many 18w Hallogen bulbs, all dimmer loads ramp from 0 to full (which is locked to 90%) over a minimum of 2 seconds which has resulted in most bulbs lasting over 7 years! And the 90% maximum has reduced the max 18w current draw of th bulb to about 14w with no visual brightness (lux) difference.

The automation controller serves mainly as a sceen store, and runs some routines like outside lights at dusk.

Homeassistant in this setup becomes just another smart controller which has the ability over MQTT to speak with the bus, report the state of every light, and trigger channels, scenes or automations. This allows me to bridge the smart lights with other environmental data for example motion or security.

Beside the lighting system I also run independent security panel with 180 sensors, in this case the now aging but still super flexible and utterly reliable ELK M1, which will run all these sensors for 48 hours on 2 x 12 gel batteries! As with the lighting system the ElK can also communicate with Home assistant in great detail.

ELK M1 with covers off and a test connection for a new Cartel sensor hanging loose

Clipsal CBus with covers off to illustrate the main panel, automation and gateway at bottom, fused channel ends at top


Then thier is the audio systems, video system and so on.

Every one of these started life in 2006 on a spreadsheet, then a plan, and finally as a maze of over 40km of cable which I personally pull every meter of, before the arduous task or termination, trace and test. But despite the blood sweat and swears this has been flawless.

My wireless quest, oh boy. Heating I implemented just 18 months ago a large 32 TRV Honeywell Evohome with 2 heat sources and 12 zones, bridged the solution to a logic platform (Domoticz with a HGI80) and ran in test for 4 months before allowing it mange the heating. It did not take long to start seeing the issues and been a closed system after much calls tweaks and fixes finally relented to the fact that it’s non mesh based wireless impemention with no support for repeaters was a bad choice and has been this summer removed and part sold during the exercise.

To replace this I am focusing on a Zwave mesh of Eurotonic Spiritz TRV with Heaty on Home assistant to deliver the same solution. Testing so far is good but the meat will be yet to be told.

Sorry this is a long story, but I wanted to share the approach that I have personally taken and how I approach these projects with customers as budget is important, but reliability is far more important, as if you have crap you will not want (or wife let you) spend more in the risk of it’s also crap.

One final point. The bus systems are called bus as they do a LOT more than just lighting, KNX can mange
Sonos, alarms, sensors and so many things. Ebay (Germany, Austria, Poland) has lots of great deals on modules if you don’t want to buy brand new, and been prosumer stuff, I can confirm that if you install it right it just works, as long as it’s not abused by a hair drier in a light dimmer channel!!

Damian

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Wow @DamianFlynn,

Thanks a thousand times! I have now (re)started looking more into KNX.
Would it be OK for you if I’d post my idea / plan as soon as I’m a bit smarter to get some input? I’d love to benefit from a decade of experience :smiley:

Thanks a lot already though! It is indeed a long story but it was worth it for me!

Cheers,
Georg

Have you thought of using an industrial control system such as a PLC and wiring everything back to an electrical control cabinet?
This will cost quite a bit more than you are planning but the options would be very versatile.

@bahmrockk you are more than welcome.

The suggestion of a PLC is a similar approach to the bus, except your responsible for programming the controller; which is what the bus offering has optimised.

If your really willing to take that route, I have in the basement a 24 Channel Dimmer Pack which I removed for a night club about 12 years ago, I installed it new about 18 years back, designed for 1 and 3 phase power with large loads. It’s a DMX / 0-10v interface and fully serviceable triacs for the channels. I have not powered it up since the day I removed it, but it was fully working at the time. I would be happy to agree a price (needless to say this cost a few K at the time, and refused to let it be destroyed) and get a shipping code (it is large and heavy). As with the PLC you would again be responsible for the bus which of course Home Assistant can do.

Please feel free to reach out, I’ll give you my feedback for sure.

Damian

Ok, here I go @DamianFlynn. I spent a couple of evenings reading around and I’m pretty sure I’m convinced :wink:

I think I’ll go ahead with a KNX setup which I’ll build out up step by step, meaning that I’ll create the first automation in the main floor and staircase and prepare things further down the road (e.g. putting TP cables where I’ll most likely want a switch in the future).

This would allow me to start with a quite small setup within my budget if I haven’t forgotten a major part.

As I have no issues with shopping for used parts I looked at ebay and came out with around Eur 600 depending on my luck.

What do you think of this shopping list?

Basic Setup
640mA power supply (e.g. https://www.ebay.de/itm/Spannungsversorgung-KNX-640mA-Hager-TXA112/223083593883?hash=item33f0d1809b:g:sjEAAOSwh31agyUQ)

IP Gateway (e.g. https://www.ebay.de/itm/Siemens-IP-Gateway-KNX-BACnet/232819082681?hash=item36351945b9:g:HTIAAOSwCGha6aT6 but used)

100m cable (e.g. https://www.ebay.de/itm/EIB-Y-ST-Y-2x2x0-8-100m-Meter-KNX-Bus-Leitung-Kabel-grun-Ring-Busleitung/282732272929?hash=item41d4281d21:g:iUUAAOSw~QRaCrS9)

8 party relay/switch (unsure of the English word) (e.g. https://www.ebay.de/itm/ABB-EIB-KNX-Schaltaktor-8fach-10A-AT-S-8-10-1/253670300737?epid=1367456212&hash=item3b0fed9c41:g:JMMAAOSwWDBbFknP )

4 * physical switches (e.g. https://www.ebay.de/itm/Jung-KNX-Tastensensor-Modul-2072-TSM/292645973902?hash=item44230f2f8e:g:o4UAAOSwC~1a~~jG )

(edit) only thing I haven’t figured out is how I get my hands on an ETS-5 licence for a few days to install everything. :slight_smile:

From my experience the gateway which has most of the integration with automation platforms, including Crestron, Iridium, etc would be one of the interfaces from Weinzier or Logic Machine.

This is a good entry, the number of KNX nodes it supports is small, but based on your plan this is a good entry, and like everything, can be swapped out if you down the line as you possibly expand your KNX network

The cable is a good price, Under the cover its essentially UTP CAT5 stuff with a better isolation in the event of High Voltage crossover for protection and fire rating.

For KNX There is a Lite version of ETS, for 200euro at this link https://my.knx.org/shop/product?product_type_category=software&product_type=ets5-lite

Finally, KNX been very flexible, you should be aware that the Jung Switch you are linking, is the Front Plate; these REQUIRE a back plate also, which has the actual connection to the KNX Bus; The relevant plate you need for those specific switches is the Jung F40 - https://www.jung.de/at/online-katalog/62514907/

https://www.ebay.de/sch/i.html?_odkw=knx+8+channel&_osacat=0&_from=R40&_trksid=m570.l1313&_nkw=jung+f40&_sacat=0

ABB is also a very well respected brand - this is good value
https://www.ebay.de/itm/ABB-EIB-KNX-Schaltaktor-12fach-16A-SA-S-12-16-1-switch-actuator-12-fold/163174487641?hash=item25fdf51659:g:XxwAAOSwjRFbXYzJ

I hope this helps a little, and sorry about the delay in replying.
Damian

https://www.ebay.de/itm/Gira-KNX-Push-button-4-way-185-00-White-Complete-with-Basate-frame/332737014956?hash=item4d78abecac:g:Xd4AAOSwGllabeCS

https://www.ebay.de/itm/Gira-KNX-Push-button-2-way-182-00-Anthracite-Complete/332737014947?hash=item4d78abeca3:g:-78AAOSw3upa2P3B

Do you need the ETS5 software to get started?

I’m digging myself into the use of KNX, but what I am currently running into is the cost and stuff that I need. Because we may be building a new house, I consider all options to get the house completely domotica proof, starting with the integration of the switches and lamps, so I ended up at KNX.