Suggestion to improve network stability

Hi everyone,
first thank you to all developers for your job, you are priceless.

For 3 years I improved my HA setup following this community, starting from simple home automation thingies to more complex solutions.

I love ‘playing’ with HA but now I bought so many devices (40+) that my current setup is working really fine but sometimes I have issues like connection stability throught devices. I mean, commands to devices sometimes do not arrive or are delayed (secs). Any suggestion to improve network stability is welcome, even replacing current network equipment.

Please find attached my comprehensive setup and main hardware/network configuration details, I hope it gives you an idea of my situation.

Proxmox summary
[P1-CT] PiHole, WG
[P2-VM] HA, NGINX, MQTT
[P3-CT] LAMP

RPIs summary
[A] Raspberry Pi 4b [2GB] - PiHole, WG, fail2ban, OctoPrint
[B] Raspberry Pi 4b [4GB] - Docker, Portainer, TVheadend
[C] Raspberry Pi 3b+ - Retropie
[D] Raspberry Pi Zero W (x2) - MotionEyeOS

NETWORKING
Fritz!Box 7590 Modem/Router
Fritz!Box 1750E Repeater
Fritz!Box 310 Repeater
Netgear Switch Managed 16ports 10/100/1000
Tp-Link Switch 8ports 10/100/1000
Tp-Link Switch PoE 4ports 10/100/1000
Netgear PowerLine (x2)

SERVERS
HP Proliant N40L [4TB] (Backup)
Synology DS218+ [12TB] (Serviio, media server)

Thank you again,
SoL

First thing i would do, if applies, is to move from repeaters to cables APs and set main router/APs to wifi channels 1/6/11.

Next is to improve wifi signal of devices with lowest signal: all this will improve wifi bandwidth as likely, in your setup, commands don’t get to devices (or they get disconnected) due to wifi channels being used by other devices.

Another thing which may help is to reduce broadcasting on your network (mDNS packets) for the same reason

Thank you (grazie!) Michele.

  1. Main issue: I cannot use any other cables, all my tubes are full.
  2. Channels 1/6/11: good, never managed this part.
  3. “improve wifi signal of devices with lowest signal”: can you give a practical example? Changing each device wifi configuration you mean?
  4. mDNS packets: I need to study about this.

SoL

Ditch the 310 and replace it with a 2400

Get another 5GHz access point, switch any devices using 5GHz over to that and use the router channel for mesh device interconnect only

Try not to use any 2.4GHz zigbee devices, only 8-900MHz

There are other more serious infrastructure suggestions I would make, but substantially more detail about location of each device (like a 3d floorplan) is required, your network topology looks inefficient to me, especially at the router

I am used to full run (sensor to HA, automation run, HA to devices) response times of around 50ms, so what you are describing would drive me nuts

Hi,

So if you can’t wire your repeaters best would be to mesh your setup (instead of using a repeater) using a 5Ghz band as backhaul while extending 2.4G network on aforementioned channels.

In terms of improving signal quality for devices who have poor one only thing you can do is play with Repeater/Modem/devices placement.

Netspot is a good tool to improve wifi network quality

Hi,

As others have said, extenders suck, and mesh 5GHz backhaul is not much better (you are trying to fix a wireless problem with a wireless solution…)

I see you are using some powerline adapters already in your network. I would replace the WiFi extenders with AP’s connected via Powerline adapters (since you have already said more direct cabling is not possible). I’ve been using these for years and found them to be very reliable with low latency. Currently running the AV1000 variants which have Gbit Ethernet ports.

If you want to dial it up to ‘obsessive’ levels (like myself), then put in a full SDN solution, managed switches, AP’s, separate VLAN’s to segregate devices and a custom router build to get better control of your traffic.

For interest, I use the TP-Link Omada SDN system, 3 switches, 4 AP’s, OC200 controller with a PC based router running Untangle UTM. Most might think this is overkill at home, but I have 70+ devices on the network and it works very well.

Thank you everyone, so:

@Richie
I have another Fritz! router (3490) which can be used as repeater, would it be a good solution?
Please find attached my fp as requested: 3 maps, base(terra) + 1st (primo) + garden (esterno).
Orange circle = router
Orange squares = repeaters
Orange star = PL

@mspinolo
Router+repeaters are already in MESH setup. I have 2 active SSID (with different names): 2,4GHz for 2,4-only-devices and 5GHz mainly for web navigation. Some 2,4-only-device manuals report to disable any existent 5GHz network, could it interfere in any way? I already moved repeaters everywhere to improve the signal.
Gonna try Netspot, never used ty.

@tescophil
I have just one PL to serve one TV, no particular issues for it (see placement details on the uploaded floorplan). I have a backup PL, I will replace one repeater to check how it goes than you.
Didnt know about TP-Link Omada SDN system, if you are managing such an amount of devices without issues I will consider your solution.

My advices/questions :slight_smile:

  1. Which software did you use to draw your schema ? I’d like to do something similar with mine but I will probably need 2 or 3 screens ! :stuck_out_tongue:
  2. If you have decent ethernet network, try to get a decent wifi network with 2 or 3 low-power Access Points. I use full Unifi network @home but other brands work as well.
  3. Take care to your wifi and channel allocation on the 2.4Ghz frequency : for instance, use only Zigbee channel 20 (which overlap wifi channel 11), and for you Wifi AP, use only channels 1 and 6.
  4. Use only 2.4Hz frequency for the SSID dedicated to Iot, and try to use 5GHz for all other devices (smartphones, laptop,…) when you can.
  5. Do you also have a bluetooth ‘network’ ? It also runs on the 2.4Ghz frequency and can intrefer with Wifi and Zigbee.
  6. You can use multiple Wifi SSID, and for instance, dedicate a Wifi SSID to IoT modules. Those different SSID may be related to different VLANs on your network. And if you have some trouble, you could apply some rules to give higher priority to some traffic if needed. But try to keep all devices that need to talk together frequently on the same network.

Hi Shaad,

  1. I used Sweet Home 3D
  2. 200/20Mbit band. Unifi would be also a valuable solution, I will compare with Amada SDN ty
  3. This is the hot part, as previously suggested I have to work on channels
  4. This is exactly my setup
  5. No BT network on purpose
  6. I should create subnetworks for sensors etc, but I’d need L3 switches isnt it?

@sol Take all this with a pinch of salt, but here are some of my experiences/opinions

I’ve been messing around with home networking for over 25 years now, and as such, my network has evolved over time. Back in the day, when the average household had less than 5 things on the internet, the router supplied by your broadband provider was more than capable of handling the traffic, with the network complexity and interactions were relatively low.

The issue I see these days is that the same broadband companies are supplying the same (very cheap) routers to households which unlikleynow have dozens of devices online. The complexity of these networks is going up, but, because of mass adoption, suppliers have to make the systems simpler to use, which usually means making them more intelligent…, however, this causes more problems due to highly complex interactions between all these smart systems. The result being that these networks are ultimately much harder to manage long term.

Clearly you have a complex network, and more that enough technical know how to setup all the devices you have connected. Its just time to give your infrastructure some love :wink: In my experience, that way to do this is to simplify how your network is managed, and use appropriate kit.

When does a home network turn into an enterprise network ?, Scale and complexity. From the look of your setup this is definitely at the very top end of home / entry level enterprise. e.g. Using a simple ‘deigned for home’ router at your scale will work, but not necessarily give you the performance and control that you need to get the best out of the network. I know the Fritz!Box you are using is by no means ‘basic’, but it still lacks enterprise type features for managing your network.

There are a number of open source ‘Universal Threat Management (UTM)’ systems which can be used to replace your router with something more flexible. I have used a bunch of these over the years, but for the last 10 years have been using Untangle. This is free, as are many other OS UTM distributions. I run this on a dedicated fanless Celeron based PC ($120), and its basically a full enterprise grade UTM you can use at home. As I said before, something like this is not necessary…, its just the next level.

For the network past the router, I recently moved from to a full SDN solution. This was because is was becoming too cumbersome to manage 4 access points and 3 switches all separately. Moving to full SDN means that I now manage the entire network from one interface, again, not necessary…, just next level.

With these 2 management interfaces (Untangle & Omada SDN), I can see in detail everything that is going on with my network, which then allows me to make changes, and compare the performance with hard metrics.

The issue I see in the future is that systems like mine are out of the reach of (probably) 99% of home users. From my point of view, my network is now simpler and more performant than ever…, but I’ve been doing this for 25 years. As the average home network complexity increases I think either people will need to become much more educated about how all this stuff works (unlikely…), or home networks will have to become ‘professionally’ managed in order to maintain the performance we all now expect.

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@Shaad I don’t think any of the Fritz!Box kit that @SoL has can support VLANS. This would be the obvious way to go in order to segregate devices and apply different QoS priority rules, but you need the infrastructure kit to support this…

On the WiFi front, agree with all that has been said. Limit both 2.4GHz and 5GHz to 20Mhz channel width, and always set to use non overlapping channels where you can (in the UK 2.4GHz thats 1, 5, 9, 11 & 13. For 5GHz its 36, 40, 44 & 48. In my experience many devices don’t yet support 5GHz extended channels above CH50), and yes, set 5GHz to 20MHz as well, unless you have some magical WiFi device that needs more than a 192Mbps bi-directional link…, you will get zero interference and cleaner handovers between AP’s as you move around the house.

Hi Phil,
your reply should be labeled as “motivational guide”, thank you!
My problem is that I have been adding more and more devices for years 'cause I liked to play with HA/IT (hey, I’m just a biologist :slight_smile: ): now the love turned into ‘need’ and ‘performance’. Almost all my lights are controlled by sonoffs, such as ACs blinds gate and so on.
I think that my situation and your solution need an intermediate level of solution, in terms of know how (thanks Paride!) and costs. Full SDN could be the final solution.
The first thing I will do is to apply channel limit solutions as you all mentioned and replace AP with router (repeater mode) and PL.

Thanks all again

Hi everyone,
in the router (fritz7590) settings I can only select one preferred channel per band. Should I leave it “automatic” or set one channel?

As reported here, I also disabled this setting:

Wireless LAN coexistence enabled (2.4-GHz frequency band)

The FRITZ!Box can use 20-MHz channels and 40-MHz channels (in accordance with the Wireless N standard). If multiple wireless routers in the 2.4-GHz frequency band are transmitting on one 40-MHz channel, interference may result. To avoid such interference, enable “Wireless LAN coexistence enabled”. The FRITZ!Box then switches to the 20-MHz channel whenever it detects a wireless router transmitting in a 40-MHz channel of the 2.4-GHz band.
You can disable this setting in locations with no other or only weakly transmitting wireless networks.

I also reduced the “Maximum transmitter power” and set the connection settings to “Maximum stability” instead of “Maximum performance”.

Thank you
SoL

Set it manually.
But first you need to know whuch zigbee channel you are using.
Then use wifi channels that do not overlap your zigbee channel, and do not overlap themselves if you have multiples Wifi Aps.
Take care, Zigbee and wifi channels do not share the same numerotation !

2.4 GHz WiFi Channels :

2.4 GHz ZigBee Channels:

ZigBee and WiFi Coexistence — MetaGeek

1 Like

From what I can see your repeater signals are going to the router at an oblique angle relative to the floor, and passing through several walls, to the signal it is like passing through 5 or 6 walls, and the signal will be quite poor.

Can you draw on the map where all ethernet ports and trunk are? also where the 8 port switch is located.

Hop latency can be quite small, but if it is waiting on radio it can be disruptive. Try arranging the network hardware as follows:

Modem - Router (not wireless) ->
  16pt switch - Router/AP (wireless 2.4GHz with 5GHz mesh)
    all repeaters  and 2.4GHz clients
  16pt switch - Router/AP (wireless 5GHz)
    all 5GHz clients
  16pt switch - powerline network
    all powerline devices
  16pt switch - POE switch
    all POE devices
  16pt switch - Server and Pis