Which smart relay system in combo with HA?

Hi,

I’ve been using HA in combination with Zigbee and Sonoff wifi modules.
Now I’ve started complete renovation on the 2nd floor.
I’m redoing all cables and need to decide what to do.

My plan was to use one BUS/EID green cable 2x2x8 for all the switches. And use a seperate 3G2.5 for each light source. This way I can set up a seperate smart system that remains working if my HA is offline. Would be smart, no?

The choice is very difficult, and especially expensive, since all logic is possbile in HA.

My choises are KNX, Loxone, Niko. They all need ip interfaces and for a small startup I lose 1000€ min.

Other solutions would be Sonoff or Shelly’s. But then I can’t use the green EID cable for my switches since I need to use zigbee or wifi switches?

Good idea would be to set it up as a KNX environment, but use the Sonoff at first. So I’m futureproof or I can always switch back to another technology.

My ideal situation: use the cabled setup in combination with a smart switching relay with ip interface / LAN interface. (or ESP?) It should have digital inputs and AC outputs.

Any advice would be amazing!

Hi :wave:!
+1 for KNX - it works really well and is quite future proof (as in not single vendor bound).

I’d run 5x1,5 wires to light outlets instead of 3x2,5 to always be able to upgrade to DALI later and modern lights will probably not need 2,5 mm³ - but that’s for your electrician to decide - if you plan to go decentralized CC or CV LED controllers in the future you may need 2,5.

PS: the green cable is called EIB as in European installation bus - the former name of KNX (due to not being European centric anymore I guess).

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Thanks for the advice. I meant to say 3G1.5 and 2.5 for the powerplugs.
For certain lights I will choose for 5G. So I am ready for DALI. Thanks for that.

I understand that KNX is a safe (and costly) choice. There is an opportunity on the market to have smart relays with open connection. For KNX and others you’ll need a controller or an interface which could be managed by HA.

Great approach. This was exactly my first idea. But started to doubt my opinion. I just wanted to be ready for the future. So I can always change of expand my setup.

You don’t need a controller for KNX - it is to a great degree decentralized. Every switch or dimming actuator etc communicates directly with say a wall switch or presence detector. You only need a power supply and an ip interface if you want to connect eg. HA - that’s about 200€. ETS is quite expensive if you want your own license and not have it configured by a professional.

Also consider using conduit - you never know where you need more than 3 wires in the next 40 years :wink:

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Thank you for your reply. That is indeed a big difference if you don’t need a controller. But then DALI seems an interesting option? I can connect the 2nd floor (2 rooms) with one Dali bus. And there is a mqtt integration for HA.
Seems much cheaper and very easy cabling for both input as output. This really seems the best solution. Do you agree?

Wow it did. That’s odd. interesting reply though.

How do you do MQTT to DALI?
There are some DALI switches too, but these are only supported by newer gateways/devices. The downside of that is that afaik it’s lighting only - so no temperature sensors or climate / Cover control like you can do with KNX stuff.
But for dimming lights DALI is a good option - there are cheap led drivers you can use to replace for existing / new lamps to upgrade them to be dimmable / Dali compatible like Osram OTi or TCI Jolly.
There seem to be lots of 2nd hand DALI - KNX gateways on the market - this can also save some bucks.

I have Zigbee to MQTT set up. All my sensors are available there. The combination with DALI and Zigbee seems possible if they communicate 2 ways? I would indeed look at the DALI switches. Using KNX would off course make it possible to use nice looking switches. To have more choice.
The Sonoff M5 switches are nice too, but they are wifi. I would prefer a cabled protocol or at least a ZB protocol.

Hm okay, I keep on searching for the best approach. I’m changing minds like it’s changing days.
The idea now is to set up the cabling like I would use KNX (each light source connected to the fuse box and a SVV signal cable connected to each switch). And then use Shelly’s to make it work both with swiches as through HA. This is cheap to start off, but easy to upgrade to KNX others. It’s wifi as protocol, but at least connected with wires, so it works standalone once configured. But then I realize that for example the Shelly Pro 4PM uses 240v switching cables instead of the 12v or 24v I would use with the 0,8mm signalcable. Also the choice of switches would be different.
You can use the Shelly i3 behind each switch (and a 24v power supply), but then I’m using wireless while the idea of using a wired system with the pro 4 seem perfect. So back to the drawing board.

I think I should skip the step in between and go immediately for a robust system like KNX. You said that you only need an ip interface and a power supply to make it work with HA. So if I add a digital input module and an output module, I’m good to go?

Well, if you buy Knx switches you don’t need an input module. They send telegrams to the bus directly. You need input modules for eg. reed contacts (windows) or conventional switches.
Depending on how many Knx devices you are planning to install you will also need an ETS license (home for <100 or professional for unlimited - or even Demo (free) if you are willing to do some tinkering).

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Ok, thanks. So, a ip interface, a power supply, output module and a dimmer output module. Unless I go for DALI. I thought the ETS license would not be needed if you use HA to set up the logic. That’s a pitty though.

HA can’t provision (program) the devices, it can only act as another device on the bus and thus communicate with others.
Doing any configuration change for Knx devices (initial setup, change of addresses that are sent to or reacted on, dimming curves etc.) is done via ETS.

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Ok, thanks for the info.
It’s still very expensive all together. The search for the ideal (and democratic) smart relay system remains open :wink:

Have a look at this 8 output / 8 input DALI relay. https://atxled.com/pdf/AL-DA-IO16.pdf. You can get a DALI hat for $100 and control 64 relay contacts or read 64 contacts or control 64 sets of lights. Another low cost DALI relay is the SR-2701S DALI Relay Module + DALI to 0/1-10V Converter SR-2701S-N - this has an on/off relay contact and a 0-10v level output. no KNX or DALI license needed to use these.

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Just a small headsup.
I decided to go for DALI. All the way.
All EIB cables are in place, the 5G cable for lightning is also in place.
I use the Osram Oti DALI dimmers and want to connect downlight LED to it.

Easy install, BUT one hickup. The search of powered downlight led spots seems very difficult. I can’t seem to find good downlight spots that can be connected with the Osram Oti drivers. All lights without driver go above 50€ a piece. That’s a pitty. The technology is great, but the offering on the market is rather limited.

I’m also looking for a similar setup for new construction. I wanna have it wired but I wanted to avoid having KNX, Loxone…etc to avoid the complex setup and maintenance (wanna avoid having unnecessary logic into these devices as it’s simpler to do it myself in HA or even HK).

Shelly Pro seemed to be a good option but it’d be a lot of extra wiring as each and every light & switch will need to be brought to the breaker box using the live 1.5 mm² cable. Not yet sure if such extra cables would be very expensive but on the other side I’d use traditional switches and avoid power supply and logic units.

I’ve also found a new shelly product (Shelly Pro 3) which have dry contacts, so the switch could use low voltage.

Could you please share why you have discarded the Shelly Pro option? It could provide useful insights for me.

Thanks

I sticked to the setup of an EIB cable for all my switches and sensors. And used a 5G1.5 in a circle for my lights. Whatever happens in the feature, I would be able to connect another system to it. (as long as DALI exist that is). I’m using Qbus as domotica hardware. The cost of the controller and Dali module is cheaper than the Shelly option. Shelly is not cheap. On top of that you would be using a lot of cables.

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