Why are people asking the same questions over and over again? (Or the Regulars' Chatroom) 🤷

[four2six (J.)]

@parautenbach

Yes, agreed: Many people use “when” and “if” interchangably.

And that’s not wrong. If you look at the meaning (as a conjunction, 2nd entry) (or here), ‘when’ can mean ‘if’.
And coming from german, today’s translation of the english “when” is “wenn”. But so is the translation of “if” (german: “wenn”).

[parautenbach (Pieter Rautenbach)]

I will agree that AI bots are as confused as the population, due to its training. I see the point you’re making. I still feel though if people just paused for a moment to think that it should become apparent. We don’t live in a very patient world where the general populous will make an effort.

I did my own experiment with a private AI bot, using the same initial prompt, including a suggestion at the end. TL;DR: It’s suggestion to replace condition is to use requirement, but I think that’s too formal.

Summary

Pieter
use “condition” in a sentence as part of home automation.

AI Assistant
Sure, @pieter. Here’s a sentence for you:
“In our home automation system, we set up a condition that if the temperature exceeds 30°C, the air conditioning automatically turns on to maintain a comfortable environment.”

Pieter
but doesn’t a condition imply a criterium, rather than an event or trigger?

AI Assistant
You’re correct, @pieter. My previous example might have blurred the lines between a condition and a trigger. Let me clarify with a more accurate sentence:

“In our home automation system, we have a condition that must be met for the lights to turn off automatically: no motion detected for 15 minutes.”

In this sentence, the condition refers to the specific criterion (no motion detected for 15 minutes) that triggers the action (lights turning off).

Pieter
hmm, this seems unconvincing and confusing.

let’s say my automation is described by this sentence: “when i arrive home, and it’s night, turn on the lights.”

which part would be the condition? which would be the trigger?

AI Assistant
In the scenario you’ve described, “when I arrive home, and it’s night, turn on the lights,” we can break it down into triggers and conditions for clarity:

• Trigger: Your arrival at home. This is the event that initiates the evaluation of conditions and potentially leads to an action.
• Condition: It being night. This is the criterion that must be met, in addition to the trigger, for the action to occur.

So, in this sentence, the action (turning on the lights) is contingent upon both the trigger (arrival at home) and the condition being met (it’s night).

Pieter
in the light of this, do you then still think what you said initially is accurate?

AI Assistant
Reflecting on our discussion and your example, my initial explanation may have conflated triggers and conditions, which could lead to confusion. To clarify:

• A trigger is an event that initiates the evaluation process for an action.
• A condition is a specific criterion that must be met for an action to proceed.
  In the context of home automation, it’s crucial to distinguish between these two concepts accurately. My initial response might not have made this distinction clear. Your example helped illustrate the difference more effectively. Thank you for pointing that out, @pieter.

Pieter
are there alternative terms you could propose for “trigger” and “condition” that would help the layperson understand and distinguish the concepts better?

AI Assistant
Certainly, @pieter. To make these concepts more accessible to a layperson, we could use alternative terms that are perhaps more intuitive:

• Trigger could be referred to as the “Starting Signal” or “Initiator”. These terms convey the idea that this is the event or moment that kicks off the process.
• Condition could be referred to as the “Requirement” or “Criteria to Meet”. These terms emphasize that for the action to happen, certain specific requirements or criteria need to be satisfied.

Using these alternative terms, the home automation example could be explained as: “The Starting Signal for the automation is my arrival at home. The Requirement for the lights to turn on is that it must also be night.”

These terms aim to simplify the concepts by using everyday language, making it easier for someone unfamiliar with technical jargon to understand the distinction.

I also consulted a few dictionaries now to see if there’s a (colloquial) meaning that would support this confusion.

Summary

noun

condition (noun) · conditions (plural noun)

1. the state of something with regard to its appearance, quality, or working order:

“the wiring is in good condition” · “the bridge is in an extremely dangerous condition”

• a person’s or animal’s state of health or physical fitness:

“the baby was in good condition at birth” · “she was in a serious condition”

• an illness or other medical problem:

“a heart condition”

• the situation in life of a particular group:

“the sorrows of the human condition”

• archaic

social position:

“those of humbler condition”

2. (conditions)

the circumstances or factors affecting the way in which people live or work, especially with regard to their well-being:

“harsh working conditions”

• the factors or prevailing situation influencing the performance or outcome of a process:

“present market conditions”

• the prevailing state of the weather, ground, or sea at a particular time, especially as it affects a sporting event:

“the appalling conditions determined the style of play”

3. a situation that must exist before something else is possible or permitted:

“for a member to borrow money, three conditions have to be met” · “all personnel should comply with this policy as a condition of employment”

The closest I could get is with meaning #3 above – but note, it’s closest. It’s not an exact hit.

EDIT: four2six pointed out the conjunctive case, which I didn’t consider.

[tom_l]

@nickrout

The proliferation of repetitive posts is partially due to the very loose moderation here. If it was a bit tighter, like some forums, the repetitive posts would be locked and then deleted.

That would not be a very inclusive response to people just starting out, and not the attitude we want to foster.

I had my 5 year forum anniversary a few weeks ago. I looked back at some of my earliest posts. Good lord I was green.

We forget what it is like just starting out. Try to remember what it was like not even being able to understand the documentation let alone find what you are looking for. Remember this and be a bit more tolerant, or ignore the post and let someone else deal with it.

@parautenbach

I see FRs are being clamped down pretty quickly, usually.

That is to make sure it is easy to judge the demand for an FR. It’s more difficult to do if the same request is spread all over the place in separate FRs.

[aceindy]

@tom_l

Remember this and be a bit more tolerant, or ignore the post and let someone else deal with it.

That is where I am at them moment…tempted to answer, but deciding to let someone else deal with it

[Swallowtail (Simon)]

Reminds me of the time I tried to make a contribution by clarifying some ambiguous HA documentation which I had misunderstood. I was unceremoniously told I was wrong, it was my fault I’d not understood and no changes were needed.
Upon reaching out to a moderator for a third-party view I was ignored. I was right too - it was ambiguous

The documentation is far from perfect, not everyone is open to hearing that, and not everyone on this forum is welcoming to feedback.

There is a certain inevitability though - HA is complex by its nature, people will misunderstand, get wrong, etc., with the best will in the world.

Some would do well to remember they were learners once too.

[parautenbach (Pieter Rautenbach)]

@four2six

And that’s not wrong. If you look at the meaning (as a conjunction, 2nd entry) (or here ), ‘when’ can mean ‘if’.

I agreed, didn’t I? I never said it’s wrong. I expressed two clear colloquial cases where I think it would be confusing to interchange it, but I accept there are cases where it’s more interchangeable. I think you point out a valid case with the use as a conjunction, which could be the source of confusion for some.

@four2six

And coming from german, today’s translation of the english “when” is “wenn”. But so is the translation of “if” (german: “wenn”).

That’s interesting. I can speak basic German as a 3rd language and thought if “wenn”, but because my German isn’t very good, I wasn’t 100% sure whether German makes a distinction. I think the point was already made, but it’s understandable that some of these terms can then be more confusing in another language you don’t know very well. In the case of the HA UI I can definitely see that the translation of “when” for a trigger and “if” for a condition both being “wenn” will be confusing.

[parautenbach (Pieter Rautenbach)]

@Swallowtail

Some would do well to remember they were learners once too.

Totally, but also for learners to acknowledge they’re learners and not to criticise everything that didn’t make intuitive sense to them. It’s not to say that’s what’s been said here, nor that things shouldn’t be improved, but I’ve seen this attitude on the forum. There’s a balance to strike.

[Swallowtail (Simon)]

Agreed. Humility from learners and grace from experts.

[four2six (J.)]

@parautenbach

I agreed, didn’t I?

Sort of, and sort of not. I felt, you somehow implied that is lazy not to be accurate, as afrikaans is kind of right by having two distinct words. But I wasn’t trying to correct you, just to add some further thought. I agree, it wasn’t something really new. Sorry for that.
And I took a look: the german UI is calling the parts of a new automation “Auslöser”, “Bedingung” and “Aktionen”… so it’s actually quite clear.

Not sure, there is really a problem here, except that home automation in itself isn’t that self-explanatory. And not everyone is a computer nerd to delve into solving a problem on their own.

[berthome (Bert Arends)]

@aceindy

I know this:

If the picture were a good reflection of reality, ‘reading the docs’ would be a lot more appealing. Problem is, you don’t have to queue up to post anything

[parautenbach (Pieter Rautenbach)]

@four2six

I felt, you somehow implied that is lazy not to be accurate, as afrikaans is kind of right by having two distinct words.

Not at all. I know I’m pedantic. I wouldn’t argue for the superiority of any language. The comparison of languages was to point out that Afrikaans, English and Dutch all share this specific trait by users of the language. Like I said, it happens in my home language too, although I personally will try to be as clear as possible. Communication is hard.

@four2six

And I took a look: the german UI is calling the parts of a new automation “Auslöser”, “Bedingung” and “Aktionen”… so it’s actually quite clear.

Thanks for this clarification.

[petro]

@parautenbach

So, you’re saying our mods are quite nice and tolerant people?

I see FRs are being clamped down pretty quickly, usually.

Feature Requests is the only area we don’t allow duplicates. That’s because we want votes to be in 1 place so we have an actual representation of a feature request instead of it being fractured among 80 topics.

[LiQuid_cOOled]

@parautenbach

Totally, but also for learners to acknowledge they’re learners and not to criticise everything that didn’t make intuitive sense to them. It’s not to say that’s w

This is just one of the current fractures in society, at least in my country. If they don’t understand, it’s your fault…you didn’t explain it well enough. No eagerness to learn on their own so in business it becomes who you know, and will they give you the answer.

Odd times…

[aceindy]

@LiQuid_cOOled

If they don’t understand, it’s your fault…you didn’t explain it well enough. No eagerness to learn on their own

I think that is a problem with the whole new generation…no initiative to learn whatsoever.
I have always been eager to figure things out myself; once I understand how it works, I understand (and will never forget it again).
While the learned monkey tricks are forgotten tomorrow, as one does not know exactly how it works

@LiQuid_cOOled

so in business it becomes who you know, and will they give you the answer.

Odd times…

Conclusion…we are at a stand still (and therefore going backwards )

[LiQuid_cOOled]

I took everything apart when I was young, simply to understand how it worked. Drove my parents insane

[checking12 (Sander)]

hold on, so people not using search is one thing. But when you create a new topic, search is done for you:

Should this then just roll over the “create topic” button so people cant go around it?

[Arh]

At 60 years old I still just take things apart

Right now my shed is full of a completely stripped washing machine, so I can fit new bearings.

[four2six (J.)]

this turned into some generation z bashing quite quickly

[checking12 (Sander)]

thats nature

[Arh]

To be fair It’s not just gen z, my brothers in law have no idea how to fix anything. They are twins and 59 years old. I tried to explain to one how to change a tap washer. Said I would do it next time I popped round. He is still in shock that it took about 10 minutes to fix. He doesn’t even own a screwdriver. Just pays someone to do it for him.