Z-Wave network slow and unresponsive after adding a Fibaro Walli Roller Shutter

Configuration Z-Wave
1

My Z-wave network has been working fine for years until recently when I added a Fibaro Walli Roller shutter to the network. The Roller Shutter device is working mots of the time, but Home Assistant will occasionally report the incorrect state. Restarting Home Assistant fixes the issue.

However, after adding the device the rest of the Z-Wave network is very slow and unreliable. Sometimes devices wont respond to commands at all, and those that do often take quite a while to do so.

Looking at the log, I’m seeing a bunch of messages indicating commands time out.


2020-06-26 20:04:37.729 Info, Node024, Value::Set - COMMAND_CLASS_SWITCH_BINARY - Switch - 0 - 1 - False
2020-06-26 20:04:37.729 Info, Node024, SwitchBinary::Set - Setting node 24 to Off
2020-06-26 20:04:37.729 Detail, Node024, Setting Encryption Flag on Message For Command Class COMMAND_CLASS_SWITCH_BINARY
2020-06-26 20:04:37.729 Detail, Node024, Queuing (Send) SwitchBinaryCmd_Set (Node=24): 0x01, 0x0a, 0x00, 0x13, 0x18, 0x03, 0x25, 0x01, 0x00, 0x25, 0xaf, 0x53
2020-06-26 20:04:37.729 Detail, Node024, Setting Encryption Flag on Message For Command Class COMMAND_CLASS_SWITCH_BINARY
2020-06-26 20:04:37.729 Detail, Node024, Queuing (Send) SwitchBinaryCmd_Get (Node=24): 0x01, 0x09, 0x00, 0x13, 0x18, 0x02, 0x25, 0x02, 0x25, 0xb0, 0x4d
2020-06-26 20:04:44.061 Error, Node019, ERROR: Dropping command, expected response not received after 1 attempt(s)
2020-06-26 20:04:44.061 Detail, Node019, Removing current message
2020-06-26 20:04:44.062 Detail, Node019, Notification: Notification - TimeOut
2020-06-26 20:04:44.062 Detail,

Any idea what might be wrong here? I’m using the Z-wave graph panel and it’s showing a completely flat network, despite many wired units that should make up a meshed Z-Wave network.

Thanks!

2

What is node 24?

3

It’s a Telldus wall switch. The device I tried to toggle. The issue affects other switches too though so it’s not specific to that one device.

4

Exclude and re-include the switch without secure mode. Only use secure inclusion on devices that require secure mode.

5

Why is secure mode an issue now and not before I added the Walli roller shutter device for example?

6

Secure mode causes extra overhead on the zwave network which by nature is low bandwidth. So logical first step is to remove the overhead first.

If you’d like technical details, you’ll need to ask fishwaldo.

7

I thought secure mode was mostly an issue with older devices. A bit concerning that a Z-wave network with 7-10 devices basically becomes unusable when 3-4 of them are using secure mode. :confused:

8

It is my understanding that mixing Zwave and Zwave Plus devices can slow things down. Perhaps this is the case in your situation?

9

I agree with @firstof9
Secure commands require 4 message blocks, standard only requires 1.
You are throttling your network by 75% including the items securely.
Some items (eg locks) require secure inclusion. Most do not.
I have built several z-wave networks and from experience I avoid secure like the plague

My network is currently 27 nodes

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10

That makes sense, but I’m curious about what’s the limiting factor here. Is the Z-Wave network by design not supposed to be capable of handling more than a few secure devices in an otherwise large Z-Wave network or is this a limitation of the Z-Wave implemention used in Home Assistant? Or is it a hardware limitation that could be remedied by upgrading my Z-Wave controller hardware? I haven’t found any non-HA related Z-Wave discussions that advise against secure mode.

I’ve re-added many of my devices as non-secure now and the network is performing a lot better. I just wish I could keep the network secure as manipulating non-secure mode devices is quite trivial.

11

I see freshcoast is coming so, one of the most knowledgeable people around on z wave

I’m not sure what you mean by this ?
Why is it trivial ?
Why do you want secure ?
What does secure mean to you ?

Have you ever tried including a device without access to the z wave hub management control console ?
If someone did manage to break in to your network, given the range limitations, they’d have to be sitting at the bottom of your garden for any contact. In a van maybe waiting and listening. For what.? To switch your lights on and off ? Who cares ? That’s assuming that you don’t notice you have a new node and a secondary controller to boot. Most devices are set only to talk to node one, or to a specific node (eg thermostat to boiler switch)

1 Like
12

Is the Z-Wave network by design not supposed to be capable of handling more than a few secure devices in an otherwise large Z-Wave network or is this a limitation of the Z-Wave implemention used in Home Assistant? Or is it a hardware limitation that could be remedied by upgrading my Z-Wave controller hardware?

The Z-Wave network is low bandwidth. With a network of only Z-Wave Plus devices the max data rate is 100 kbps. If you throw in some non-Plus devices it can go down to 40 kbps. As mentioned, the legacy security (S0) has a lot overhead, the newer S2 version is more efficient but not supported by OZW yet.

I just wish I could keep the network secure as manipulating non-secure mode devices is quite trivial.

Trivial for who?

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13

Thanks for the insight. So you’re saying my network bandwidth will increase if I get rid of any non ZW+ devices?

14

My understanding is that if non-Z-Wave Plus nodes are involved in routing (i.e. acting as a repeater) then those routes will have to downgrade to the non-Plus functionality, which means dropping to a lower speed, reduced range, no explorer frames (self healing), etc…

So if you had non-Plus mains-powered devices (that were routing), you could see a benefit if you replace them.

I’m 95% sure of all of that, hopefully our resident expert will see this and confirm. :sweat_smile:

15

So battery powered non-plus devices have no negative effect on the network then? That’s the theory at least?

16

Also, you’re saying that S2 will eventually be supported? I find it hard to believe that the Z-Wave network standard would make it impossible to run a network with 5-6 security enabled devices.

100kbps is still a lot when all you’re transferring are simple messages, even if we’re adding encryption overhead. Or so I would think.

17

The simple answer is “its complicated”. :slight_smile:

  • ZWave is Transactional based - meaning only one command can be in flight at any one time.
  • Its Half Duplix - Meaning You can’t send and receive at the same time
  • Non-Plus devices involved in routing will drop your bandwidth to 40kbps (bits - Not Bytes! so 5kB/s Bandwidth! - or 12.5kB/s for all ZW+) - (for clarity - ZW+ and 100kbps are not tied together - They were released around the same time though - so you can generally say “non-zw+ devices” with reasonable accuracy.)
  • On 300 and 500 Series Chips - Encrypting/Decrypting take time. The Microprocessors there are tiny. To Encrypt/Decrypt they take time. I’ve seen RTT times go above 1 second for some devices with S0 enabled. 700 Series Chips are miles faster, but not many devices yet. Turn off S0 encryption and you will see RTT times drop as low as 20ms. (S2 will probably not really help “slow” devices here unless its 700 series)
  • Chatty devices (regardless of S0) consume bandwidth - Frequent Meter Reports, Motion Sensors that are miss configured etc…

Its possible to run S0 on all devices - But a lot of tuning of devices is needed, and having “decent” devices is important as well. (despite certification - Lots of vendors have some sub-optimal implementations).

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