Zigbee Utilization 90%, normal for 130 devices?

korayberk · February 12, 2024, 6:44pm

After having complaints from all household members, i unplugged the BLE dongle from my HA Yellow (CM4 + SSD) hoping it would help.

after reboot (without BLE devices), i still see warnings about utlization.

the number of zigbee devices i have:

the network looks like this

i have seperated my yellow, as much as 1 meter from WiFiRouter from ISP.

i have removed all innr lamps (which seemed to be the most unstable ones).

I would be grateful for some troubleshooting or advice.

Thanks in advance,
Koray

Stiltjack · February 12, 2024, 7:57pm

If you go to the ZHA integration page and click on the three dots next to Configuration, then “Download diagnostics”…

…when you open the downloaded file there will be a summary of channel usage (somewhere right at the bottom).

Here’s mine:

    "energy_scan": {
      "11": 75.96022321405563,
      "12": 10.914542804728702,
      "13": 85.82097888710312,
      "14": 89.93931580241996,
      "15": 96.64469941013013,
      "16": 87.33047519856483,
      "17": 7.659755505061292,
      "18": 10.914542804728702,
      "19": 2.84844209578687,
      "20": 82.35373987514762,
      "21": 4.15070068297423,
      "22": 9.713248103580147,
      "23": 6.789392891308996,
      "24": 6.789392891308996,
      "25": 0.792717332355823,
      "26": 23.33483723001185

I have ZHA with 60 devices on channel 20 and Z2M with 2 devices on 11 - so the number of devices doesn’t seem to make much difference.

If another channel is very low you might consider moving there. If all the channels are high there may be interference coming from somewhere - neighbour’s wi-fi?

There’s lots of good advice here, if you haven’t seen it already, but much of it relates to systems with dongles (I have an RPi with a separate powered hub and 2m cables to the dongles - difficult to do on a HA Yellow).

FriedCheese · February 12, 2024, 8:01pm

Distance from the router doesn’t overly matter. What matters way more is if your wifi channel overlaps with your zigbee channel.

With Zigbee channel 20, you want your wifi on channel 6 or lower. This also depends on what your wifi channel width is set to.

Hedda · February 13, 2024, 5:27am

That is not completely true, if the Zigbee Coordinator is placed very close to an Wi-Fi access point then the EMF (Electromagnetic Fields) from it can jam all frequencies even though it is primarily transmitting on different frequency then the chosen Zigbee channel, (same goes with other sources of EMF, which can be any electric appliances, cables, or power-supplies), again do try to read and follow all the tips here → Zigbee networks: how to guide for avoiding interference and optimize for getting better range + coverage

jjross · February 13, 2024, 6:03am

Well crap, this explains the warnings in my logs. Guess I’ll never get Zigbee working right:

"energy_scan": {
  "11": 99.96779559098808,
  "12": 95.69133648577223,
  "13": 96.19660508390695,
  "14": 88.70042934643088,
  "15": 95.69133648577223,
  "16": 91.05606689948522,
  "17": 91.05606689948522,
  "18": 92.0598007161209,
  "19": 96.64469941013013,
  "20": 98.78775542226437,
  "21": 99.95244201173874,
  "22": 99.86556508059712,
  "23": 99.94584318876281,
  "24": 99.6205874545284,
  "25": 97.7033852118351,
  "26": 96.64469941013013
},

Stiltjack · February 13, 2024, 1:24pm

You might try running Zigbee on a USB dongle rather than using the built in version - then you could move the stick around on the end of a long cable. You could also get a stick with an external antenna, which might help. There’s some recommendations in this thread:

However, I don’t know wether it’s possible to disable the Zigbee that’s built into the Yellow - you can only have one instance of ZHA. If not, you would have to use Z2M instead.

Perhaps someone with a HA Yellow could comment?

korayberk · February 13, 2024, 2:17pm

here it is, but i dont know what to make of it
thank you for your time.

energy_scan": { "11": 55.9836862725909, "12": 52.75969252664325, "13": 75.96022321405563, "14": 55.9836862725909, "15": 97.97769123383605, "16": 94.48255331375627, "17": 95.12234809209261, "18": 94.48255331375627, "19": 91.05606689948522, "20": 85.82097888710312, "21": 95.69133648577223, "22": 91.05606689948522, "23": 88.70042934643088, "24": 95.12234809209261, "25": 2.509919386096536, "26": 97.97769123383605 },

korayberk · February 13, 2024, 2:30pm

could you elaborate on “very close”. how does 1 m sound like?

korayberk · February 13, 2024, 2:49pm

I started with RaspPi and had a deconz zigbee stick with a meter long cable. But when the performance starting going bad with that one, i thought i was doing the smart thing, going to HA Yellow.

I could always plug that old deconz stick in to yellow and disable the onboard zigbee radio, but that would be dumb, no?

korayberk · February 13, 2024, 2:57pm

my log is also swarming with the following error:

Logger: zigpy.zcl
Source: runner.py:188
First occurred: February 12, 2024 at 7:20:45 PM (196 occurrences)
Last logged: 3:48:36 PM

[0x0CC2:1:0x0020] Traceback (most recent call last): File "/usr/local/lib/python3.12/site-packages/zigpy/zcl/__init__.py", line 377, in request return await self._endpoint.request( ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ File "/usr/local/lib/python3.12/site-packages/zigpy/endpoint.py", line 253, in request return await self.device.request( ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ File "/usr/local/lib/python3.12/site-packages/zigpy/device.py", line 326, in request with self._pending.new(sequence) as req: ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ File "/usr/local/lib/python3.12/site-packages/zigpy/util.py", line 290, in new raise ControllerException(f"Duplicate TSN: {sequence}") zigpy.exceptions.ControllerException: Duplicate TSN: 27 The above exception was the direct cause of the following exception: Traceback (most recent call last): File "/usr/src/homeassistant/homeassistant/components/zha/core/cluster_handlers/general.py", line 634, in check_in_response await self.checkin_response(True, self.CHECKIN_FAST_POLL_TIMEOUT, tsn=tsn) File "/usr/src/homeassistant/homeassistant/components/zha/core/cluster_handlers/__init__.py", line 83, in wrapper with wrap_zigpy_exceptions(): File "/usr/local/lib/python3.12/contextlib.py", line 158, in __exit__ self.gen.throw(value) File "/usr/src/homeassistant/homeassistant/components/zha/core/cluster_handlers/__init__.py", line 75, in wrap_zigpy_exceptions raise HomeAssistantError(message) from exc homeassistant.exceptions.HomeAssistantError: Failed to send request: Duplicate TSN: 27
[0x1333:1:0x0020] Traceback (most recent call last): File "/usr/local/lib/python3.12/site-packages/zigpy/zcl/__init__.py", line 377, in request return await self._endpoint.request( ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ File "/usr/local/lib/python3.12/site-packages/zigpy/endpoint.py", line 253, in request return await self.device.request( ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ File "/usr/local/lib/python3.12/site-packages/zigpy/device.py", line 326, in request with self._pending.new(sequence) as req: ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ File "/usr/local/lib/python3.12/site-packages/zigpy/util.py", line 290, in new raise ControllerException(f"Duplicate TSN: {sequence}") zigpy.exceptions.ControllerException: Duplicate TSN: 118 The above exception was the direct cause of the following exception: Traceback (most recent call last): File "/usr/src/homeassistant/homeassistant/components/zha/core/cluster_handlers/general.py", line 634, in check_in_response await self.checkin_response(True, self.CHECKIN_FAST_POLL_TIMEOUT, tsn=tsn) File "/usr/src/homeassistant/homeassistant/components/zha/core/cluster_handlers/__init__.py", line 83, in wrapper with wrap_zigpy_exceptions(): File "/usr/local/lib/python3.12/contextlib.py", line 158, in __exit__ self.gen.throw(value) File "/usr/src/homeassistant/homeassistant/components/zha/core/cluster_handlers/__init__.py", line 75, in wrap_zigpy_exceptions raise HomeAssistantError(message) from exc homeassistant.exceptions.HomeAssistantError: Failed to send request: Duplicate TSN: 118
[0x1333:1:0x0020] Traceback (most recent call last): File "/usr/local/lib/python3.12/site-packages/zigpy/endpoint.py", line 253, in request return await self.device.request( ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ File "/usr/local/lib/python3.12/site-packages/zigpy/device.py", line 327, in request await send_request() File "/usr/local/lib/python3.12/site-packages/zigpy/application.py", line 833, in request await self.send_packet( File "/usr/local/lib/python3.12/site-packages/bellows/zigbee/application.py", line 931, in send_packet raise zigpy.exceptions.DeliveryError( zigpy.exceptions.DeliveryError: Failed to deliver message: <EmberStatus.DELIVERY_FAILED: 102> The above exception was the direct cause of the following exception: Traceback (most recent call last): File "/usr/src/homeassistant/homeassistant/components/zha/core/cluster_handlers/general.py", line 634, in check_in_response await self.checkin_response(True, self.CHECKIN_FAST_POLL_TIMEOUT, tsn=tsn) File "/usr/src/homeassistant/homeassistant/components/zha/core/cluster_handlers/__init__.py", line 83, in wrapper with wrap_zigpy_exceptions(): File "/usr/local/lib/python3.12/contextlib.py", line 158, in __exit__ self.gen.throw(value) File "/usr/src/homeassistant/homeassistant/components/zha/core/cluster_handlers/__init__.py", line 75, in wrap_zigpy_exceptions raise HomeAssistantError(message) from exc homeassistant.exceptions.HomeAssistantError: Failed to send request: Failed to deliver message: <EmberStatus.DELIVERY_FAILED: 102>
[0x44EC:1:0x0020] Traceback (most recent call last): File "/usr/local/lib/python3.12/site-packages/zigpy/zcl/__init__.py", line 377, in request return await self._endpoint.request( ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ File "/usr/local/lib/python3.12/site-packages/zigpy/endpoint.py", line 253, in request return await self.device.request( ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ File "/usr/local/lib/python3.12/site-packages/zigpy/device.py", line 326, in request with self._pending.new(sequence) as req: ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ File "/usr/local/lib/python3.12/site-packages/zigpy/util.py", line 290, in new raise ControllerException(f"Duplicate TSN: {sequence}") zigpy.exceptions.ControllerException: Duplicate TSN: 23 The above exception was the direct cause of the following exception: Traceback (most recent call last): File "/usr/src/homeassistant/homeassistant/components/zha/core/cluster_handlers/general.py", line 634, in check_in_response await self.checkin_response(True, self.CHECKIN_FAST_POLL_TIMEOUT, tsn=tsn) File "/usr/src/homeassistant/homeassistant/components/zha/core/cluster_handlers/__init__.py", line 83, in wrapper with wrap_zigpy_exceptions(): File "/usr/local/lib/python3.12/contextlib.py", line 158, in __exit__ self.gen.throw(value) File "/usr/src/homeassistant/homeassistant/components/zha/core/cluster_handlers/__init__.py", line 75, in wrap_zigpy_exceptions raise HomeAssistantError(message) from exc homeassistant.exceptions.HomeAssistantError: Failed to send request: Duplicate TSN: 23
[0x44EC:1:0x0020] Traceback (most recent call last): File "/usr/local/lib/python3.12/site-packages/zigpy/endpoint.py", line 253, in request return await self.device.request( ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ File "/usr/local/lib/python3.12/site-packages/zigpy/device.py", line 327, in request await send_request() File "/usr/local/lib/python3.12/site-packages/zigpy/application.py", line 833, in request await self.send_packet( File "/usr/local/lib/python3.12/site-packages/bellows/zigbee/application.py", line 931, in send_packet raise zigpy.exceptions.DeliveryError( zigpy.exceptions.DeliveryError: Failed to deliver message: <EmberStatus.DELIVERY_FAILED: 102> The above exception was the direct cause of the following exception: Traceback (most recent call last): File "/usr/src/homeassistant/homeassistant/components/zha/core/cluster_handlers/general.py", line 634, in check_in_response await self.checkin_response(True, self.CHECKIN_FAST_POLL_TIMEOUT, tsn=tsn) File "/usr/src/homeassistant/homeassistant/components/zha/core/cluster_handlers/__init__.py", line 83, in wrapper with wrap_zigpy_exceptions(): File "/usr/local/lib/python3.12/contextlib.py", line 158, in __exit__ self.gen.throw(value) File "/usr/src/homeassistant/homeassistant/components/zha/core/cluster_handlers/__init__.py", line 75, in wrap_zigpy_exceptions raise HomeAssistantError(message) from exc homeassistant.exceptions.HomeAssistantError: Failed to send request: Failed to deliver message: <EmberStatus.DELIVERY_FAILED: 102>

Hedda · February 13, 2024, 4:06pm

Zigbee radios/communication can extremly sensitive so it is not recommend to put it just 1 meter away from a WiFi access point, again that is why we have to have guides like this → Zigbee networks: how to guide for avoiding interference and optimize for getting better range + coverage

korayberk · February 13, 2024, 8:17pm

After reading tons of info like this (a lot of data, not much info), i had decided to go with what home assistant sells themselves (hence yellow). I guess i bet on the wrong horse.

korayberk · February 13, 2024, 8:19pm

I am sure it means something to the right person.

Hedda · February 14, 2024, 11:31am

By the way, I read that EMF/EMI/RMI is the reason why the Home Assistant Yellow only has USB 2.0 ports and is sold with a non-WiFi variant of Raspberry Pi CM4 (without Wi-Fi), so at least they did that to mitigate having an onboard Zigbee/Thread radio module, …but I bet that from what they learned since the Home Assistant Yellow shipped if they would redesign that board today then they would probably optimize the whole board design further for better Zigbee module placement as well as add some basic EMF shielding to the module, (i.e. add metal covers to components for EMF shielding), and maybe even add an external antenna.

FYI, it is also not recommended to use Multi-PAN/Multi-protocol firmware (i.e. RCP firmware with both Zigbee and Thread enabled in a single radio SoC at the same time. Instead, it is recommended to use one dedicated radio chip/module/adapter for Zigbee and a separate radio chip/module/adapter for Thread. At least if you plan on adding more than a few devices of each.

Hedda · February 15, 2024, 10:08am

@korayberk I am replying here below in this existing hread instead of in your new thread as you asked not to be lectured there and this might feel like a lecture → Is Home Assistant Yellow really unusable?

Choose to ignore this if you want but I am telling you that this will explain your problem and the solution.

Firstly, I believe that you have misunderstood what “zigbee network utilization” values mean here. That “zigbee network utilization” has nothing to do with the amount of Zigbee devices on your Zigbee network, so it has nothing to do with how many more Zigbee devices you can add. You see that “zigbee network utilization” is just an the the result of a frequency scan that is meant to be used indication of how much radio noise is on those frequency bands which is meant to help you select the the Zigbee channel with the least radio noise. Most of that radio noise will be EMI (electromagnetic interference, also called RMI / radio-frequency interference) from different EMF (electromagnetic fields) due to all kinds of electric charges, meaning everything with electricity, including all types of cables and electric appliances.

You can use that “zigbee network utilization” for troubleshooting to do tests as you move your Zigbee Coordinator away from sources of radio interference, usually starting by moving it away from any devices with Wi-Fi router/access, but also all other electronics. FYI, other than WiFi, know that USB 3.x/4.0 devices (like example USB devices such as harddrives) are infamous for causing serious interference with Zigbee communication. It is therefore highly recommended that you read and understand then follow all these tips → Zigbee networks: how to guide for avoiding interference and optimize for getting better range + coverage

It is not unusable, you just need to make sure you are not using the built-in Zigbee radio as a dedicated Zigbee Coordinator and not in the experimental RCP Multi-PAN/Multi-protocol mode (please see the detailed explanation of why that is further down), and you also need to understand how to work around the inherent limitations and network design of the Zigbee technology.

The radio module built into the Home Assistant Yellow is based on Silicon Labs EFR32MG21 SoC and that has been proven to run stable when handling around 200 Zigbee 3.0 devices if running as a dedicated Zigbee Coordinator in NCP mode for a single network and as long as you also are following Zigbee best practices. (But if you have enabled the experimental RCP Multi-PAN/Multi-protocol mode then that goes out the window, again please see the detailed explanation of why that is further down).

That however depends on you also adding enough Zigbee Router devices (i.e. mains-powered devices that work as good Zigbee signal repeaters / Zigbee range extenders), as well as do your best to keep sources of EMF/EMI/RMI away from all Zigbee radios. That is, you have to understand that Zigbee heavily depends on its Zigbee network mesh technology which depends on having many stable Zigbee Router devices on the same Zigbee network. Again, I highly recommend that you read and follow all the tips here → Zigbee networks: how to guide for avoiding interference and optimize for getting better range + coverage

Note that all the above is only true if you run it using the default Zigbee-only mode (with the standard NCP firmware) and you have not enabled RCP Multi-PAN/Multi-protocol mode to also use it for a Thread network. Please see the detailed explanation below of why that is and why you should not use RCP Multi-PAN/Multi-protocol mode if you want to use more than a few Zigbee devices.

Just to clarify my recommendation about running in NCP mode with a single private network instead of running in RCP Multi-PAN/Multi-protocol mode with two active private networks on a single radio (one radio SoC/MCU module);

If you have enabled RCP Multi-PAN/Multi-protocol mode support on the built-in Silicon Labs EFR32MG21 radio module in the Home Assistant Yellow (and thus switched that single radio to be used in the experimental RCP / Radio Co-Processor mode) then connected both Zigbee devices and Thread (Matter over Thread) devices to that single radio at the same time you can not expect it to concurrently be able to handle as many total devices as it would be able to handle if it was instead being used as dedicated Zigbee Coordinator in single network mode.

Because of the way Multi-PAN/Multi-protocol technology works, running in two networks with two protocols simultaneously will significantly limit the total amount of devices that a single radio can handle, so just because that single EFR32MG21 radio SoC can handle around 200 Zigbee 3.0 devices when running as a dedicated Zigbee Coordinator in NCP mode does not mean that same single radio can handle 100 Zigbee devices and 100 Thread devices concurrently. Also understand that the way Zigbee works the resource constraints of that single radio is a bottleneck for the whole Zigbee network.

The fact is that the overhead and complexity of running two different networks in RCP Multi-PAN/Multi-protocol mode will realistically restrict the total amount of devices that the single radio can handle. Hence the RCP Multi-PAN/Multi-protocol mode is still being labeled as experimental, and the general recommendation is to instead use a separate dedicated radio adapter for Zigbee once you start adding many Zigbee devices.

So do not get me wrong, the built-in radio in Home Assistant Yellow is great to get started with both Zigbee and Thread, but once you added 50+ devices then I would strongly recommend that you separate those two networks so that they run on their own dedicated radio adapter/module.

Finally, to keep things fair you should start by comparing apples and apples. To compare, the Philips Hue Bridge officially only supports connecting up to a maximum of 50 Zigbee devices, and that upper maximum is similar to most other commercial Zigbee gateway/hub/bridge/controller appliances, so compared to having multiple Zigbee gateways/hubs/bridges/controllers it will be much better to migrate all your Zigbee devices to a single network, read my related comment here → Zigbee buyer's guide - #3 by Hedda

korayberk · February 15, 2024, 6:36pm

apologies for my poor choice of words due to sleep deprivation and frustration. my bad, I am sorry. in proper etiquette should i delete my other, frustrated thread (in which i also apoligized)?

i have read your reply -full of information- only twice, just to reply asap. I will re-read it several more times.

First off, I had never turned on this setting, to keep things simple.

I had removed the BLE dongle (at the end of a cable) (hope to hook it back one day)

I have tried to seperate as much as i can from the router, i will look for more distance.

my 2.4 ghz wifi is on channel 6. unfortunately, my isp currently doesnt let me change this. if this is the key, i will fight with ISP, or get my own wifirouter.

seeing my energy scan, 25 has a lot of breating space. do you think moving to channel 25 might help?

and finally, please, you said “make sure you are not using the builtin zigbee radio as a dedicated zigbee coordinator”… how do i test or configure this?

i understand that Yellow will have its limitations. I hope i will be able to improve the situation. (out of the 120 devices, 25 are thermometers. i have around 15 lamps and 15 power plugs (both are zigbee routers, right?) They are scattered all around the house. so the zigbee mesh should be fine.

apologies once more @Hedda
Looking forward to more of your feedback.

Hedda · February 15, 2024, 7:39pm

Yes changing Zigbee channel will probably make things much better for you. Though be aware that when changing Zigbee channel you might need to power-cyckle a few devices and sometimes even have to re-pair a few battery powered devices if they do not reconnect automatically.

Just make sure that you first already physically moved Home Assistant Yellow away from all other electronics (especially any WiFi and USB 3.x/4.x devices) and then re-scan to find the least noisy channel.

Product type does not determinate if a device is a Zigbee Router or not. While no battery powered fevices are Zigbee Router devices it is only a general rule that most mains-powered devices are Zigbee Router devices, there are still many mains-powered devices that are not Zigbee Router devices. You have to check their device type information inside the Zigbee gateway application (i.e. device information inside ZHA).

Important to keep in mind is to never power off Zigbee Router devices as they always need to be available or devices connected to them will loose their connection, and even if that is just temporarly it will make for an unstable Zigbee network. A common mistake there is to connect Zigbee lightbulbs/lights that acts as Zigbee Router devices to dumb switches that can be switches on an off. So not connect such Zigbee Router lightbulbs to dumn switches. If you can to connect Zigbee lightbulbs to dumb switches then you need to buy Zigbee lightbulbs that are not Zigbee Router devices, like example those from Sengled.

For a large home I personally recommend buying a few (suggest three or more) dedicated Zigbee Router devices, meaning products that was desigbed to be nothing other than Zigbee Routers.

So for a quick no-effort fix on this topic I normally just recommend that people new to Zigbee who have big houses and large areas or buildings with dense building materials make it easy for themselves and just buy a bunch of “IKEA Trådfri Signal Repeater” devices from the start to get them a good mesh network backbone as a baseline. This is because while not as strong as these Zigbee USB dongles with an external antenna, the “IKEA Trådfri Signal Repeater” comes with good firmware by default and are very inexpensive, so you can make up for them not having the highest performance by simply buying more of them, (and they are still more powerful than almost all other commercial Zigbee products that are not designed to be a dedicated Zigbee Router device).

https://www.google.com/search?q=IKEA+Tradfri+Signal+Repeater

However, if you want to get the best setup then the best AND most cost-effective Zigbee Router that money can buy today is just to convert a few of ITead’s “Sonoff Zigbee 3.0 USB Dongle Plus V2” (model “ZBDongle-E” based on Silicon Labs EFR32MG21) into dedicated Zigbee signal repeater / Zigbee range extenders by flashing them with Zigbee Router firmware and powering them with a simply USB-chargers. While maybe not the prettiest solution to look at, if you make sure they are permanently powered then joining/pairing three or more to your Zigbee network and spreading them around in your home will create an extremely stable backbone in your Zigbee network.

That must have been a typo, I again only meant that you should not enable multiprotocol. That is, use one dedicated radio adapter/module for Zigbee and a seperate radio adapter/module for Thread, (concurrant multiprotocol on a single radio is bad, mmmkey).

The reason why Home Assistant SkyConnect’s firmware developer is putting RCP Multi-PAN effort on backburner is further explained here → The State of Matter

There is a third, experimental, firmware option that supports multiprotocol, which allows the Silicon Labs chip in these products to connect to both Zigbee and Thread networks with one radio. We announced our intent to release a firmware supporting multiprotocol when we launched Home Assistant Yellow and Home Assistant SkyConnect, and this firmware has been available since December 2022. It integrates the Silicon Labs SDK, which adds this support for multiprotocol. During the further development and testing of the multiprotocol firmware, we have concluded that while Silicon Labs’ multiprotocol works, it comes with technical limitations. These limitations mean users will not have the best experience compared to using dedicated Zigbee and Thread radios. That is why we do not recommend using this firmware, and it will remain an experimental feature of Home Assistant Yellow and Home Assistant SkyConnect. If you currently have the multiprotocol firmware installed but don’t actively use it to connect to Thread devices, we recommend that you disable multiprotocol.

PS: Off-topic byt FYI; when using the ZHA integration it is by the way super easy to migrate to a new Zigbee Coordinator radio adapter if you would later want to use the build-in radio adapter/module for just Thread.

korayberk · February 15, 2024, 7:57pm

I need the weekend to try everything you mention. Many thanks.

Right off the bat, I can say: i do have router lamps that are connected to dumb switches that some people insist on using to turn off!

I didnt know that with such “users”, I should pick special kind (not router) of lamps for stability. When all I had was a hue hub, even if people closed lamps, it would be fine. Lagging lamps began after i started using rasberry Pi, but I thought that was due to anemic cpu (rPi3), ram(1G), i/o to sd card. I was naive to assume Yellow would solve all my woes.

Lets check if i got this right: even if i have a nice zigbee mesh with repeaters and routers, 2-3 router lamps turned off (from dumb switches) can screw it all up? I am not psychologically ready to disable the dumb switches

I have two parting questions:
1- is the zigbee channel utilization warning the main indicator of the poor performance i have? or is it one of the many parameters?
2- i also have a bunch of EmberStatus.DELIVERY_FAILED: 102 errors. are they related to my current woes, or this is another issue entirely?

Hedda · February 15, 2024, 9:23pm

Yeah that could very well be one of the root causes of your problems other than EMF/EMI/RMI interference. There is no other way around it. You need to disable all dumb switches connected to Zigbee Router lightbulbs or replace those lightbulbs with models that are not Zigbee Router devices.

This was recently explained in more detail to a other user here who understood the problem but did not accept the only possible solutions → Stop Zigbee Mains powered device from being a router? (ZHA)

Maybe the Philips Hue Bridge handles recovery in that scenario better but the fact is that using dumb switches to Zigbee Router lightbulbs is dumb, it goes against the architectural design of a Zigbee network mesh and breaks the technology.

Hell, in my opinion, manufacturers making Zigbee lightbulbs that are Zigbee Router devices is stupid as of course many users will make this mistake without knowing it. If you read on Sengled website they specifically mention that this is why their Zigbee lightbulbs are not Zigbee Router devices → https://support.sengled.com/hc/en-us/articles/115010871308-Do-any-Sengled-Zigbee-devices-act-as-Zigbee-repeaters

That is only an indicator of radio noise (i.e interference) which is just one of many parameters and one that is usually among the easist to fix when you understand that interference is a serious problem for Zigbee as all you need is to relocate the Zigbee Coordinator away from all sources of interference and maybe switch either WiFi channel or Zigbee channel so that they do not conflict. Again read and follow these tips → Zigbee networks: how to guide for avoiding interference and optimize for getting better range + coverage

Those errors mean that Zigbee communication messages failed to be delivered to one or more devices, and that can be due to either interference jamming the signals or you switching of Zigbee lightbulbs acting as Zigbee Router devices with dumb switches.

The root causes of these problems can not be fixed with software configuration so I think it is now time for you to understand that you need to change your mindset and grasp that you need to take some actions, whether you like the idea of them or not.

phidauex · February 15, 2024, 10:03pm

To address this particular point, I’d say yes, it is very likely to help. I had a dodgy Zigbee network for a year, finally bit the bullet and did some channel scans, identified 25 as a good candidate (and it often is since it is “above” all the wifi channels), and switched. It is a pain because you have to repair everything, but it worked great.

I’m now on a POE powered coordinator (a TubeZB - earlier version of this), channel 25, about 60 devices from multiple vendors, and the network is rock solid. I haven’t had to repair or fiddle with a device in over a year (truly).

On the routers-connected-to-dumb-switches topic, I use Sengled bulbs which are nice because they intentionally DON’T try to act as routers since lights being on regular switches is so common. However, I do have a number of power plugs that get moved around the house, or end up being disconnected for a while, and I haven’t found that this causes any issues with my network. Maybe if I was flicking them on and off constantly it would confuse devices, but the mesh seems to work correctly and routes around my plugs when I remove them or plug them in somewhere else in the house. At any given time this is probably only 1-2 out of my 15 router capable devices.

If you do decide to change channels, I’d export a list of all your devices to use as a checklist, get a few other things ready like replacement batteries that you can save time by replacing at the same time, and then plan on pairing the first 15-20 devices and a good collection of routers to monitor the network for a day or two. If things are feeling good, keep pairing, but if you are still having trouble, you can try a different channel without much lost time.