A few basic questions just to check I understand before I start with Hass.io and Automation in general

Installation Home Assistant OS
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Firstly, sorry, I know parts of this have been asked before and I originally wanted to post about a week ago and have been working through my list of questions myself trying to determine the answers and now just need some help “checking my workings” and confirming that I have understood correctly. My first post so hope you will go easy.

Firstly, a bit about me.

I am very new to Home Automation, currently have one set of Tradfri lights, a Tradfri hub and homekit through an Apple TV and Iphone.

I live in the UK and not having neutral wires in the wall mean things like Lutron, and smart switches do not often work so started looking at Sonoff and the like.

I know little about programming (little means nothing) but enjoy learning and researching (probably more than actually completing a task!)

I have a Raspberry Pi 3+ that arrived today, a Macbook pro, apple 4k tv and iphone.

My plan is to automate lights / sensors / heating and blinds maybe. I do not think I will go as far as having my own PCB’s printed, or building my own thermostats etc but you never know.

So anyway… before I start installing anything I would really appreciate some help on the following, making sure I am correct and flagging anything I have got wrong.

  1. Hass.io vs Home Assistant
    Hass.io is a full operating system, if I install this I cannot also install Kodi for example. But its the easiest install and allows me to use addons. - correct?

2 The Addons I can install with Hassio are the ones listed here:

so these:
DuckDNS
Google Assistant
HASS Configurator
Mosquitto MQTT broker
SSH Server
Samba
Bluetooth BCM43xx
CEC Scanner
Check Home Assistant configuration
DHCP server
Dnsmasq
Git pull
HomeMatic
Let’s Encrypt
MariaDB
NGINX SSL proxy
RPC Shutdown
Snips.ai
TellStick

I was worried addons would include every single thing I might need, like the Homekit “addon” to allow HA to be seen by homekit but it seems its just some selected features which I will no doubt need but that I could install through other methods? - Could I? - Is it a lot harder?

  1. Hubs are still needed. If I went for blinds by Somfy I would need their hub for HA to understand and work with them, and if I went for Tado smart thermostats I would need their Internet Bridge for the same reasons. - Correct? Have I understood this correctly?

  2. I believe this does not apply to Z-Wave devices, and again if I understand this:
    https://www.home-assistant.io/docs/z-wave/controllers/
    correctly I can control Z-Wave devices such as a Fibaro Dimmer 2 using an Aeotec Z-Stick Series 5 plugged into my Pi. with the necessary elements added.

  3. Hass.io / HA into Homekit - My understanding on this is a little fuzzy. I know I can download the homekit “addon” to allow Homekit to see things not supported natively in Apple Home. Do I also import the automations and scenes into Apple Home or do I just import devices and then use home automation in Apple home to do stuff.

For instance, could I code in HA to turn a light on when I open my front door and import this rule into Homekit, and could I set a scene where my ceiling light turns off, my lamps dim and my tv turns on and import this into Homekit, or do I need to just import all those elements and then automate in Homekit?

  1. Lovelace - Both Hass.io and HA installs allows the use of Lovelace UI and I can view this UI on my Mac or even Ipad and use it to control elements over the wifi to my RPi or even control the home from another country.

  2. Both Hass.io and HA installs allow me to connect over SSH and program my Pi headlessly

Thanks in advance for the help, sorry for the long first post. Just want to make sure all my reading has gone in correctly before I start anything.

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Welcome to HA :slight_smile:

  1. Since you like researching and learning, I think you would find it more enjoyable to expand your raspberry to more than just HA (home assistant)
    However, having installed KODI and HA on the same rpi (raspberry), if you try playing-streaming anythin more than 720p (which leaves us with 1080p and 4K) could possibly affect the performance of HA. If you dont mind trying, then go for it and you see for yourself what kind of usage you are going to put on the machine.
    So, if I were you, I would go with Rapsbian and install HA into a virtual environment (I am already on this path)

  2. I think you are correct. -Dont know, wont answer for sure.

  3. No idea, I am interested in this too - following for an answer by someone else.

  4. Z-wave is a protocol and HA can work with it. So my guess is that you can go for it without hubs. I personally use sonoffs with Tasmota firmware flashed (go for it, it is fun to learn how to do it. Super easy once you master it. Sucks until you do.)

  5. -Dont know, wont answer.

  6. Yes. Lovelace is currently the default frontend. The previous one is on the way out :smiley:
    Every device can see the interface you setup on HA. It is also responsive according to each screen resolution.

  7. If you install Raspbian and HA into a venv as I mentioned before, then you have to enable SSH from the OS. -Google it. It is not difficult. Just have a screen and a keyboard when you begin installing it and after you enable ssh, you can do whatever. Even setup a vnc and connect to it with another computer and have a full desktop experience with a headless pi.

I didnt answer everything as myself too am not an expert, but these should give you a head start.
Feel free to ask anything.
Cheers.

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Welcome aboard…

My comment on a few of the questions.

  1. Yes , Hassio is the easiest and also allows for use of the add-ons which run in docker containers. It is very flexible, but if you want to install other applications on the same system, it would need to be conainerized. There are community contributors that have created additional add-ons accessable directly from Hassio. I moved from running HA in a virtual environment to hassio and have been really happy with it. It is much easier to maintain. My other words of advice are to use a really good SD card, keep a backup, and use a high quality power supply that provides the 2.5A needed. Additionally, if you are concerned about needing to run additional apps, a Pi is pretty inexpensive especially compared to a NUC or other PC and require less maintenance.

  2. Most devices don’t need an add-on to connect to. If they communicate over IP using a known protocol, then there is probably a component in HA which can talk to the API of said device.

  3. Hubs - the need for these is tied to the devices you choose to use. So far, I have avoided anything that needs a hub.

  4. ZWave devices don’t require a hub, but will work with the Zstick. Since you have challenges with neutral wires, be aware that most/all permenant devices like switches mounted in the wall, do require a neutral wire, since they always need power to operate. For that matter, anything that operates remotely is going to need power to be controlled. So things like ‘smart bulbs’ drop off the network if you turn off the wall switch.

  5. I took a very brief look at Home Kit, but did not pursue it. Others would have better input here.

  6. Yes.

  7. Hassio is truly headless from the start. Installing HA on a seperate OS such as Raspian is going to require a monitor and keyboard to get it setup and configured. Then you can access it over SSH.

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Welcome

@ dap35 has answered pretty well perfectly, what I was trying to convey. Instead here are my ramblings, from my last 12 months with HA

Im also from the UK. I run my entire house using raspberry PI 3 . I have a Xiaomi light switches ( no neutral required), sensors, Tradfri bulbs, harmony Hub, Roku, sonoff UK plugs, and lots of Alexa’s.

The raspberry pi is not a super computer . Trying to run too much will make make everything run poorly. Home automation must be reliable , 95% just will not work out. Dedicate a raspberry pi to home automation. Use Hass.io. KISS

I have been running HA in Hass.io in a “production” environment for over 6 months without mishap. I have been removing “addons” to make the system as lean as possible. I have now gotten down to just these

Configurator To edit scripts . Great editor mainly for being able to add entity Id ( crap memory)
DuckDNS This includes let encrypt ( Next on my list to remove, with the Alexa app (IOS and android) and Alexa cloud have no need for remote access)
Appdeamon Essential all my scripting is now in python. Massively simplifies my coding.
SSH Command line access. Also can use SFTP to upload or download files. Allowed me to remove Samba as no longer required.
Mosquitto broker Just for the sonoff. Looking at esphomelib to see if I can remove this as well.

Hass.io has great backup. Easy to update Once setup you can just leave it alone.

Currently running 3 additional hubs harmony, Tradfri and Xiaomi . I have purchased a zigbee addon board for the Pi to replace the Tradfri and Xiaomi hubs. Lot of work to change config , and so far both hubs have been very reliable so “still getting around to it”

Start simple HA can control the Tradfri through the hub. Hass.io is a 10 mins install. You can save the HA config and swap back to Rapsbian later if things don’t work out.

Yaml will be your biggest hurdle, it was a complete nightmare for me , but these forums are very helpful and it will make sense eventually.

Best of luck :wink:

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Second to this. The other add-on I would highly recommend is Samba. That lets you easily access the persistent files in hassio (your backups, configurations, automations, etc) via a standard file share.

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Thanks everyone.

Looks like the reading instead of doing any work has paid off and I at least have a grasp of what lies ahead!

The Pi arrived today, so wish me luck tonight if I get chance to at least make a start. I think a lot of stuff will be easier when I am actually looking at screens and doing rather than just planning but who knows.

Think Hass.io is the way forward then. I did think running Home automation AND trying to download torrents or stream TV from one £30 unit might be pushing it.

@lonebaggie interesting to hear you are running Xiaomi light switches. Do you have a link to them? I just tried a quick search, are they called Aqara? How do they work without neutral? Was just about to order a Fibaro dimmer and a toggle switch but this may change that.

Thanks again everyone for the really useful info.

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I started with LightwaveRF version 1 but they were dumb, they were one way only. NO way of telling if they were off or on. Version 2 came out Home-kit compatible, maybe worth a look , but they are very expensive, no native HA support ?

Edit Lightwaverf is now supported from 0.84

I switched to Xiaomi as were much cheaper ( they are now getting more expensive) and two way , they will report if off or on, and don’t require neutral . They need a 35mm box. I have had to use extender rings to fit my boxes.

No dimmer switches in the Xiaomi range !!. I have used tradfri bulbs in the living room to add this feature , No easy feat as smart bulbs and smart switches do not mix. The problem is the tradfri bulbs need about 60 seconds to connect correctly to the hub . If you remove power by switching them off at the switch, things can get out of sync and dimming is problematic . Most people solve this by leave the bulbs permanently on and use a wireless switch or the tradfri dimmer to turn them off and on. Not a fan of this approach. IF HA, or the hubs fail, you cannot turn your lights on or off. Do have scripts to help with this problem

All Xiaomi kit I use is zigbee compatible . I have the following

Hub

https://www.gearbest.com/living-appliances/pp_344667.html?lkid=12972004

Switches

https://www.gearbest.com/alarm-systems/pp_610096.html?wid=1433363
https://www.gearbest.com/alarm-systems/pp_625774.html?wid=1433363

Wireless switches

https://www.gearbest.com/access-control/pp_626696.html?wid=1433363

Sensors

https://www.gearbest.com/alarm-systems/pp_659226.html?wid=1433363
https://www.gearbest.com/smart-light-bulb/pp_257678.html?wid=1433363
https://www.gearbest.com/home-smart-improvements/pp_668897.html?wid=1433363

Delivery times from gearbest were random, 10 to 40 days need patience. I have had some luck with ebay , but more expensive, delivery times were better 5-7 days .

Locked down the firewall to stop the Xiaomi hub from phoning home. Do not want the hub to update in case it removes developer mode and stops working with HA

I have bought https://elelabs.com/products/elelabs_zigbee_shield.html to replace the Hubs, but I have over 25 Xiaomi devices and I cannot run both hubs at the same time. Also there were issues with HA and zigbee, so im waiting for native support to be more reliable.

Any other questions , just ask :slight_smile:

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Thanks again @lonebaggie ! Sounds like I have lots to go at then.

The switches look a nice solution. Wish more people did kit for non neutral wiring, although I have seen some nice installations of sonoff basics where the switch wires are connected to GPI014 and GND and effectively repurposed to control the sonoff which I thought was clever.

I looked at lightwave but because they still effectively dim I cannot have them in my kitchen as my kitchen is all down lights that do not dim. Not sure why they dont dim but they dont and they have dimmable gu10 bulbs so figured lightwave switches wouldnt work.

There are some lights I would love to use LiFx bulbs or hue bulbs in for colour but then you can never turn the lamp off using the switch on the flex which will annoy the wife. I did think though that through HA presumably I could get Hue / LiFx bulbs but link a remote of some sort to them ( i know Hue already do a remote but Hue stuff is far from cheap)

Will give the install a go and take it from there!

One question regarding Zigbee. Zigbee means devices talk to each other right? because they all use the same protocol? Does having something like Home Assistant mean Zigbee or not matters? Does HA not mean you can talk across platforms or does it not work like that?

Could I use a Fibaro bluetooth switch to control a Zigbee light for example using HA or can you not mix?

Thanks again

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One firewall alternative is to use Pi-Hole, which I run on a dedicated pi and allows you to use secure DNS. I don’t know about the UK, but here in the states, some ISPs hijack your DNS queries. It also acts as my DHCP and DNS server. It is easy to blacklist additional domains from going anywhere. It also cuts the add traffic on the rest of my network, which can hit about 30%.

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At the moment HA talks to my Tradfri and Xiaomi hubs via the local network and TCP/IP . Using a zigbee wireless shield in the Pi would allow me to remove both these hubs. Zigbee is a mesh network so Im hoping the Tradfri and Xiaomi will both mesh into a single network as Im not sure how powerful the shield antenna is

Another reason to delay, need a nice quiet day to un-pair 30 odd devices and play :slight_smile:

HA is the glue between all the devices, protocol and network neutral . I could use a roku remote to turn my lights on and off, or alexa to dim the lights and turn on netflix . All devices talk to HA . Once triggered you can do anything.

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Good point. You need a decent firewall. Not sure a Raspberry pi network subsystem is quick enough for my internet connection, definitely needs to be dedicated. Simplest option is to remove default gateway from anything that does not require internet access and block everything else using a fixed IP and firewall rules

Using openDNS but now it has been “borged” by Cisco, may look elsewhere

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Thats the good thing about P-Hole. It is just taking care of DNS/DHCP , so a Pi is more than up to the task. I use quad9 (9.9.9.9) to forward request to and have configured TLS so that all of the DNS queries going upstream are encrypted, and Q9 has a good reputation for clean behavior. I have a friend in Network Security that pointed me this direction.

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You guys have lost me now apart from the bit about everything talking to everything in HA which I was hoping / figured was the case.

I think I will start small and maybe work up to all this DNS/DHCP IP stuff.

Thanks again for all the help, I started to install Hass.io last night but it was quite late and I got to the point with the config file and wireless details etc and then was unsure whether I want to put my wireless network details in as I will have it connected through an ethernet cable, but didnt want to continue to then find out thats the only chance to allow wifi so need to just read up on that and static IP before actually putting the SD card in and turning it on.

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Sorry Matt. We drifted off topic.

If you are connecting your Pi via ethernet, then I would just let it grab an address via DHCP. At some point, create a reservation on your DHCP server(router?) so that you have a consistent IP address. It is not critical at first, but makes your life easier. You will need this if you choose to access your Pi from outside your home network.

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One thing I havent seen mentioned yet in this thread, or I missed it, is that HassIO is a set of docker containers and a way to manage them, and HassOS is the operating system. They are not the same, and do not need to be used together.

For example, I started with HassIO running on HassOS on a RasPi, where it was the only thing running on it. I then moved to a computer loaded with Ubuntu. I still installed HassIO and can make use of all the addons, but retain the use of the rest of the computer (unlike HassOS).

All HassIO needs is a computer with Docker installed. HassOS is the entire operating system that comes packaged with docker and HassIO preinstalled.

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Very true. I would say that hassio/hassos combo eliminates the need to really understand Docker and containers. I like to think of this more of an appliance. Granted, its pretty flexible for an appliance, but it is an appliance.

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Ah thanks both.

That all helps. Just want to get home now and have a play. I am a bit stumped on what to do first as do not actually have anything to automate yet, short of one Tradfri bulb. Its a bit chicken and egg, you dont want a load of gear with no system, but a system with no gear is a bit useless too. Add to that stupid UK wiring that makes light switches a bit of a pain and it all becomes fun.

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Start playing with presence detection with your phone. :wink:

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Of course, it’s fun to play with hardware. But there’s a lot fun for me without:

  • Push notifications when the trash is collected next day
  • Push notifications when traffic from work to home is dense
  • Monitoring network traffic
  • Pi Hole integration

In my house there are no neutral wires in the wall-switches but they are available in the ceiling. A neutral wire is pulled very fast to the switch.

Do you have lights in the garden? Cheap smart plugs enough on AliExpress. Examples for automations on sunrise en sunset are all over the place :wink:

Tradfri is connected to HA in a few minutes. hardware is already in the pocket.
Doors/window sensors are relatively cheap. Goot way to start.

Take small steps at the time and, if applicable, keep the WAF in mind. Solve her problems first to gain some credits. It will make the next expense much more easier to accept :wink:

There’s enough to start with. Enjoy!

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Thanks guys (and girls maybe)!

Well, I am pleased to say last night I got my Pi up and running with Hassio, installed configurator and samba and got myself a decent text editor app for my mac.

I must say, the guide here:
https://www.juanmtech.com/home-assistant-hassos-beginners-guide/

was really useful and I found it easier than the guide on here as the video helped a real newbie and the guide on here points you to other places for bits like the Wifi USB stick parts.

Setup still took a bit of googling as I am very new to this, even things like " create a file named system-connections ." sounds obvious and I knew it probably meant text file, but mac defaults to RTF not TXT so a bit of looking sorted that.

Finding my Hassio on a mac was tricky too, or rather finding where the Network shares in finder were needed googling, and I cannot add the share to my favourits meaning I have to use Shift+Cmd+K or something each time to browse to it.

The only thing I think I have not done right is when setting up configurator the guide said:

" Under HTTP , we have the line # api_password . Remove the hash “#” at the beginning to activate the line, then type a new password and when finished, click on the Save icon at the top.
Now you need to restart Home Assistant so the changes take effect and you can do that here directly from the configurator. Click on the Menu icon on the top right and then click on Restart Hass .
Go back to the Home Assistant page and after like a minute or two refresh the page and you would now need to enter the new password created. "

I could see the HTTP line, but there was not a line for api_password so I added it in, added a password but could not get HA to ask me for this password anywhere.

Other than that I am good so far, when I logged in it found my Tradfri and Sonos so something to play with. I did not think about using it to monitor traffic or sending push notifications that sounds good!

@sholofly have you pulled neutral wires to your switches then? did you DIY it? any tips?