I use a AOSP (Open ROM) on my phone. So that i do not have to use google or apple on my phone. I really try to make sure no company as there paws inside my network / home.
Which is also why I use home assistant
I’m conscious about picking only the hardware that is open and fully mine, no cloud, no internet, only local.
I though matter would be that as well, but it seems I need google services just to be able to add thread to my phone? (Let alone adding devices)
Matter protocol requires that every device needs to be checked and confirmed by provider (which can be Google or Apple). It’s not possible to use any matter device without this check.
There’s been multiple discussions about it in this forum (see for example here). My understanding is that indeed, the protocol is nowhere near as open and local as the marketing claimed. It is made by the big corporations for their benefit, not for us.
Google and Meta, and to a lesser extent Apple and Amazon, use our personal information as the primary fuel for their business models.
It baffles me that we still convince ourselves that new protocols like Matter or Thread, developed by these very companies, somehow run counter to their core interests.
We are chasing hype, built by thsese companies, at the expense of our own critical thinking and better judgment.
The reason why you need google services is because you use a Android phone to commission the Matter device.
The way the commission work is that the Phone makes a new Matter fabric and joins the device to that, then it shares that fabric with HA, which joins it with the Matter fabric it has.
iPhones do the same with an Apple Matter fabric.
But there is an option to also plug in a BT radio dedicated to the Matter server in the HA server and use that to set up the device instead, which does not require those Google and Apple services.
I think it is done from the Matter Server’s web interface.
It is correct that the Matter server checks the device certificate against a web service.
CSA runs the main one and vendors can then make their own copy and use that.
It is the Matter server that use it. Not the devices, so if you use the Home Assistant’s Matter Server, then it will se the CSA server to check and the other copies can be ignored.
While still making cloud obligatory including getting the OK from them to actually make use of “your” device. Thanks to blockchain you only posses the hardware
But we need to acknowledge that the marketing worked a treat and having nabu casa/OHF in the boat (CSA club) even seems to give it more legitimation for a user base which usually want values such as sustainable, privacy and local control (features that matter devices all in lack of apperantly)
Matter - the wet dream for surveillance capitalists
If you call CSA’s webservers a proprietary cloud, then yes. Just like Z-Wave btw.
According to the Matter protocol, then the Matter server should present the user with an option to continue using the device, but with limited features, which here should relate to no cloud features.
The vendors own ecosystem could maybe limit it more, if the device was connected to that, but they can not limit it on like Home Assistant’s Matter server.
A further limit on a device connected to Home Assistant’s Matter server would require a firmware update, but then we are in a situation were an update for a Zigbee device could be just as damaging.
Any source that only cloud features are blocked? Did you need to sign an NDA to get this information?
And if only cloud functions are blocked you might up end with a device that only can be turned on/off+scenes (infamous sonoff matter compatibility chart)
From what I understand is that the ha matter service is certified and need to obey the rules including blocking devices from commissioning if the cloud tells us
I’m not under the impression that Matter/Thread are perfect. But I do still think they’re better than the current massive fragmentation and somewhat proprietary-ness of Zwave and Zigbee.
And of course Big Tech wants control of the standard for which they’re making devices. If I were a big company wanting to do xyz new feature, it’s fast and easy to develop eg Apple HomeKit and do whatever I need to in a matter of weeks and start selling products. Zigbee / Zwave require a fully defined standard ahead of time, which is fundamentally going to take at least a year to get to market. Matter has some flexibility so I can still do whatever proprietary experimental stuff I want and get to market ASAP, and then worry about standardizing it once the kinks are worked out with consumers.
Making standards within a company is already incredibly slow and frustrating and difficult. I have personal experience with that (not in smarthome stuff, just in general). I’m sure it’s a whole 'nother level for cross-company standards.
It is a certificate that gets revoked.
It will affect all the vendors devices and there is not a list over what function that works with or without a device imprinted in the device firmware or the Matter server.
And in the specs somewhere it says that the user should have the ability to choose to continue using the device.
You think one company can control it all.
If one company in the Matter club decides to do something that will “damage” the users, then it will affect all the other companies in the Matter club. It is a mutual agreement among the vendors and the users.
It is also a mutual agreement you have with Home Assistant and ESPHome that the standard for communication evolves together. Open Home could suddenly decide to say that the communication required for Home Assistant would require an authentication method that ESP could not support.
I think it is also possible to EOL devices only - the vendors seem to have this power. A Person involved in manufacturing matter based devices told be that they can easily block/disable counterfeit products thanks to matter. And that would be a blessing because apperantly their support receives requests from customers with counterfeit products
Can you quote the passage you are referring too? From my own research CSA does not publish anything regarding that topic (paying members only with NDA?) and only espressif slipped some lines in their docs that something like a remote kill switch for matter devices exist…
Sounds a bit like mafia
The reality will be, if a company that released matter certified devices does a rug pull like move or a too steep enshittification - taking “your” device hostage (like futurehome as an example) all that will happen is it might looses certification. Then you may end up with a bricked device which formally was matter certified, congrats!
Really? None of the latter is cloud based (obligatory for commissioning) and both do actually (mostly?) have all functions locally available (with ZigBee devices even the trashiest $3 tuya devices usually get usable thanks to community quirks). Also AFAIK none of the Z-Stuff obligates you to use some vendor app (with trackers and ads) beside some cloud with an user account (personal information like email included) - unlike matter devices. It seems kind of the norm and even HA “certified” devices like some random nuki lock requires some properitary app+cloud+account(?) so you can make any use of “your” device.
Do you have any idea how long matter (formerly CHIP) was actually in the making? And how little they delivered with 1.0?
Flexibility regarding allowing still to ship walled gardens, limit features to app/cloud/account only and even force vendor app + cloud for initial usage. Beside “sharing” data across big tech even with no device sold sounds like a no-brainer
To clarify this, Matter devices never contact the cloud if they follow the spec. Manufacturers are permitted to add cloud-based functionality beyond what the spec offers, so buyer beware.
The Matter server requires Internet access to check the distributed compliance ledger for device attestation, which as far as I know only happens during commissioning or cert revocation. The DCL is not owned or hosted by a single company, it’s a blockchain that can be hosted by any CSA member, including Open Home Foundation.
Attestation is a way of authenticating that the firmware is not counterfeit /hacked and is pitched as a trust-enhancing measure, similar to how TLS works, so the CSA has every incentive not to abuse the system because doing so would obliterate the very trust it’s meant to provide. However if even the possibility of this bothers you, obviously then Matter is not for you.
It should also be noted, and to answer OP’s original question, Matter is a partly open spec in that the server implementation is free but devices require certification (and testing) — the latter perhaps to avoid the fragmentation seen in Zigbee. As an open server spec it is possible to have open source Matter controllers, such as HA, which in turn means it’s possible, in theory, to modify the server to disable device attestation if it’s a feature you don’t want.
Interesting. Probably 95%+ actually do (for practical reasons) use their phone for commissioning - do they all onboard into google/apple cloud fabric automagically and then share it to HA afterwards? Does this result in all the matter devices “locally” connected/shared to HA actually permanently phoning to google/apple sharing their wellbeing/states?
Not sure where the myth comes from that apple (or amazon) wouldn’t cashify all their available data streams (matter? ) they have access to… I remember some old study and their was litteraly no difference between androids and iphones which both spying on their users massively
Disable device attestation in the HA matter server would probably lead it to directly loose certification because of matter specification violation
It’s actually very theoretic “owning” matter device
Each device comes with a certificate that is checked against a root certificate and it is the root certificate they can revoke, if it is compromised.
If they use a certificate per model, then yes they can revoke for that model.
The whole counterfeit problem is mainly on Zigbee though, because that protocol lack exactly that feature. The certificate is there to make it extermely hard to counterfeit a product in the first place.
You can search our old thread on this subject.
I even think it was you that provided the link.
That may be how you see it, but many users will question Matter certification then and the other companies are not blind to that.
I will end up with a device that can not use its cloud features, which I do not use anyway.
Z-wave use certification too, so that part will be the same as Matter.
Matter do not need a vendor app. You can use the Matter server to commission it.
It sounds like Zigbee can not provide cloud or vendor specific features, but even Philips Hue have features that only work with their hub.
And you do still not need a vendor specific app to set up a Matter device.
HA with Matter server is all you need (and maybe a BT dongle if your device do not have built-in BT).
Your device works as long some (random) app from an company is available via some other companies app store which you need a certain device supporting it
The only thing a vendor can do with my devices that can’t be done with Zigbee or other protocols is revoke the certificate, which means it will function with only the local features and that is the thing I only use now, since I only use HA’s Matter server and not a vendors server.
You still got limited mixed up with local for some reason
Never was anywhere written that local features will continue to work after the “remote kill switch” was triggered for your matter device. Quite the opposite. It can’t be commissioned anymore and might only work with limited functionalities if you can choose (depending on your matter server implementation) or will directly stop to function.
That’s what I understand from the very limited information ■■■■■■■ available. Probably someone needs to break some nondisclosure agreement to shed more light on this “secretly closed” dark matter
) they have access to… I remember some old study and their was litteraly no difference between androids and iphones which both spying on their users massively 
