On a quest to find the "perfect" mmWave device

Hardware
1

Why?

At some point I realized reliable presence detection seems to be the cornerstone for so many other things in home automation.

Progression

I suppose everyone starts out with some PIR motion sensors. Until the lights go out when you are eating dinner, or sitting on the commode. :slight_smile:

Then, as many did, I also became excited about mmWave. We came a long way since the original FP1 and DIY sensors, and yet years later I still find myself searching for the “perfect” mmWave device.

Criteria

Of course “perfect” is subjective, so here are my criteria (in descending order of importance):

  1. Does not require any vendor “app” nor “cloud” nor “hub” (not even for initial provisioning).

  2. Actually works:

    1. Reliable presence detection.

    2. No false positive/negatives.

  3. I prefer Zigbee, but would consider perhaps Wi-Fi, if the device(s) work well.

    1. I don’t have any Z-Wave devices nor gateway, so nothing against it, just not something I want to get into unless absolutely necessary.

  4. Should not spam the network with messages.

  5. Affordable.

I would prefer one (or more) consumer-off-the-shelf devices for the majority of my general presence detection needs throughout the home. Later, I may DIY individual device(s) for special uses (ESPHome + LD2410 for example).

Devices I already eliminated (and why)

I have spent an unbelievable amount of time researching this topic, ordering and testing units, only to still be searching for “the one”. Below follow some of my findings thus far.

I have yet to update this with every device I have tried so far. But I will try and do so as time permits.

  • Aquara FP2 - Eliminated because of requirement #1 (even though I have read many, many reports of how well they work).

  • Tuya Zigbee devices - I have researched (and bought) many of the newer (and cheaper) Tuya devices. Many of these have been reviewed by the website Smart Home Scene. But some of them are spamming the Zigbee network very badly.

    • MTG275-ZB-RL - A ceiling mounted sensor I had high hopes for, but one of the worst spamming offenders, sending 60-70 messages per minute(!). I even contacted the seller (Wenzhi Factory Store) to see if the current units have received any updated firmware, but near as I can tell, they have not. Until this is fixed, deploying any more than a few(?) of these might bring down your entire Zigbee network.

Devices I am looking at now

Currently my focus is on these devices:

  • Aqara FP1 - Have been around long enough now that I think they are well supported, even zones work without their app in Z2M by now. And price have come down into $30 range (on AliExpress).

    • AliExpress is being obnoxious about my credit card, these are not available on Amazon, and I am not paying the premium these are going for on eBay, so for now holding off. I really want to evaluate one at some point though.

  • Aqara FP1E - These however are readily available on Amazon, with Prime shipping no less! Now that I have alleviated some of my concerns, I think I will go ahead and order one to do some testing of my own.

  • ZY-M100-24G - This device first brought my attention to the spamming issue, but after testing other devices, I learned it is actually not the worst offender (by far!). The 1 unit I have is now sending only 4-11 messages per minute, which I can live with. And they are not too expensive (maybe $15 at time of writing) and seem to work decently well. By now we also have some mitigations for the ZY-M100 devices.

  • Tuya ZG-205Z (round) - This is a newer device I think. I don’t have one but some people report messages only every 2-5 seconds. There seem to be 2 versions of this (or perhaps I am confused about the model number): a round, flat one with the same odd human logo on the front like the ZY-M100-24G has, and an oval one that looks like Tuya ZG-204ZM except without the PIR sensor. I am interested in the former (reviewed here at SHS).

Still considering these devices

And then here are my current “maybe” list:

  • ZG-204ZM - An interesting battery powered sensor, combining a PIR and a mmWave in a clever way to save battery. I have 2 units installed and they seem to do the job, but I get inconsistent results in the spamming testing from one device to the other, which makes me leery. I have yet to determine if this is due to differing location, or just typical Tuya shoddy QC.

  • Apollo MTR-1 - Smart Home Scene often recommends this one as “the best mmWave sensor” but I find it kind of pricey (and then a mount is even more…). Also I would prefer Zigbee over Wi-Fi, but if it works well enough maybe I could get over that. I have yet to order/try one for myself.

  • Screek F2 - I know a lot less about Screek, but I like what I see so far. They are ESP devices like Apollo, but seem to be a little cheaper. People seem very engineering focused and working with the community to advance the state of the art. They have a lot of models, I may have mentioned the wrong one, I have yet to delve into their offerings in depth.

Spamming testing methodology

I fire up MQTT Explorer and start a timer. After some time passes (10 to 30 minutes), I jot down how many messages each device sent during that time frame and put it in a table and do some math to arrive at messages sent per minute. I have repeated this a couple times, and plan on doing more.

Other (related) discussions

Besides specific devices, perhaps some other points of discussion:

  • Is the “network spamming” issue overblown? Smart Home Scene says he thinks it is. I am not sure what to think. Although it is probably less of a problem if you have a good coordinator, lots of routers, and generally follow good recommendations setting up a strong Zigbee mesh. However even then I think it will catch up to you at some point. I plan on deploying a lot of these devices, certainly the messages will all add up at some point and possibly even bring down the network (there are actually reports of this already).

Please discuss! :slight_smile:

I would love to hear about any devices anyone has had really good results with.

And I plan to update this thread periodically with my latest findings (although, unfortunately, this may be few and far between).

2

I have 3 FP2’s for larger spaces (kitchen/dining area, living room, master bedroom suite) and I simply love them. The ability to set up zones and automate separately off of that vs overall occupancy allows for a lot of flexibility - for example, overall presence detected → ambient lights on, specific area presence detected → area task light on. It nicely allows for a sense that the rooms respond to you in the space as you move around. I am not bothered by the app, it allows for a great way to map zones graphically. Requires plug access.

I have several Tuya TS0601 (little wired zigbee pucks) that I use for small areas and pass-through detection - bathrooms, approach to room entry, etc. I have not noticed any amount of unusual zigbee traffic or problem. Moderately configurable with the right quirk installed. Requires plug access.

I have a few esp32 boards using dfrobot_0610 sensors in project boxes that are great for rarely used mid-sized rooms - super sensitive response with a lot of configurability in distance (not as good as the FP2, though). They live behind curtains to hide the ugly boxes. Require plug access.

I have a couple battery Eve (matter) occupancy sensors watching exterior entry doors to automate alarm control (disarm if door opened while occupied inside the door). Not very flexible but solid performance as long as you watch battery levels.

I no longer depend on the handful of PIR motion sensors that I have deployed - just too lazy to remove them.

3

When you say 3 FP2 for big rooms do you mean 3 per room? Are you varying ceiling/wall mounted?

4

I have one FP2 in my kitchen with 3 detection zones: general occupancy, stove/prep island/sink and dining nook - general occupancy turns on ambient light, specific zones turn on (or brighten) task lighting for the respective zones and roll it back on lack of occupancy.

I have one in the living room with 3 detection zones: general occupancy, couch/loveseat occupied, fireplace area - general occupancy turns on ambient light, specific zones…you get it.

I have one in the master suite with 3 detection zones: general occupancy, rouxdoo-in-bed, mrs-rouxdoo-in-bed - various scenarios actionable for night time, naps, wakeup, dressing, etc.

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Yeah, at first I thought the “zones” thing was a bit of a gimmick. but even in my setup I could see some applications. And your examples are giving me some more ideas. Luckily this feature is also available in some of the devices I am considering (e.g., FP1).

6

I can tell you, the zones on the FP2 are no gimmick. Use the Aqara app to define and map the zones in real time - you can use the graphical map to add furniture, add doors and limits/extents/borders to the sensor response. You can even add exclusion areas for things like ceiling fans or kitchen cache racks. You can (using the app) walk around and see yourself or others as dots on the map of your room and fine-tune the zones you define.

You asked for the “perfect” mmWave device - I’m telling you that this is as close as you can buy today.

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7

Did you end up roof mounting ?

8

Corner mount in the living room - excellent coverage.

The bedroom it’s on the long wall in front of the bed which covers everything when someone is in the bedroom but I do have a Tuya puck on the side of a cabinet facing in to the short entry hall to early-fire first entry occupancy events.

The kitchen is funny shaped so at a cabinet top corner facing kinda down - this leaves a tiny blind spot under it and in front of the microwave. Come to think of it that corner could use a tuya puck with a short tuned distance to cancel the blind spot.

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9

You seem to have missed the most important requirement.

10

Getting ready to order an Aquara FP1E to test, since I can’t seem to order an FP1 from AliExpress right now (they are being obnoxious about my credit card).

My plan is to keep updating the OP with the most relevant information as research continues. I just added some more recent testing results.

11

Did you also look at the Athom unit with ESPHome support? I have one for a year now and it’s good.

The best discovery that I made is that they can function well from behind wood - I have mine in my kitchen but installed behind the pelmet of the presses, it works well and has little loss of detection, except the IR sensor obviously does not work behind wood. It may be an option for some.

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12

I would not consider the FP1, I purchased 4 of them with very high hopes, they are virtual useless for me. We have ceiling fans and forced air climate control, and the three rooms without ceiling fans (bathroom, toilet and laundry) all have ventilation fans, so the FP1 always show presence. They have been relegated to the garage. I
did purchase 4 FP1E and they were a huge improvement. But both models suffer the same issue: They work for a while and then some sort of event occurs (power outage or a Zigbee device goes off line) and they go off line and can not be reconnected for weeks or months, all 8 are currently not included in my HA Zigbee network, typically I need to power down the whole house to have any chance of including them, so I have no enthusiasm to mess with them.

But I will be tracking your research.

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That is one for the reasons I like the FP2 units. I’m able to map out interference zones such as ceiling fans, kitchen cache rack, etc. If there is an element causing false positives you can, in real time, view the detection graphically and mark it for later so it does not trigger next time.

14

What about the Everything Presence One sensor?

Im looking to get a mmWave sensor for my living room as i soon realized the P1 is only good for low occupancy rooms…

15

I really like the Athom PS01. I’ve even made a few customizations to the firmware which is just awesome and easy to do — took less than two minutes.

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16

Disappointing to hear, but you may have saved me some time. Which I guess is what this thread is really about at the end of the day.

I began to research the FP1E this morning, many people seem to think it is basically an FP1 except updated certifications (or whatever) to be sold in US or other markets outside China (recall the original FP1 was (and still is?) only sold in China), and/or simply some software updates while being essentially the same hardware. Which sounds plausible enough to me. And would explain the similar behavior between the models.

I have heard many of these work through drywall, walls (some times undesirably), but this is the first I heard through wood, interesting.

In my mind at least, I group all these ESPHome/Wi-Fi devices similarly. Most of reports I have read about performance (presence detection) have been good, some people even swear by them. I was just hoping to get mmWave on Zigbee. But as I said in OP, if I can’t I will have to start looking at these. Which I am about to start doing, I am so frustrated with the Zigbee options.

Many of these also seemed like cramming too much unnecessary stuff all into one device. But maybe that’s because I already have separate temp/humidity and PIR motion sensors (Aqara) which work well for me. I guess if you were just starting out, all-in-one devices like that would be more compelling.

But then we are back to numerous multi-sensors all reporting over Wi-Fi. Which sounds like a bad idea IMHO.

17

Speaking for my Athom, I’ve found all three sensors to be incredibly useful, e.g.: IF motion is detected AND the room is unoccupied AND the room is dark THEN turn on the lights. Note this required modifying the firmware so that presence detection is on a slight delay after PIR — thanks to esphome it was very easy to do that, but few if any Zigbee sensors give you that degree of customization.

Not knowing exactly what you have concerns about, but I’ve found that even with 80 devices on my WiFi network, these things use hardly any traffic and congestion is not an issue, as long as you avoid 24/7 streaming cameras and upgrade your ISP router to something with WiFi 6.