Why are people asking the same questions over and over again? (Or the Regulars' Chatroom) 🤷

[ShadowFist]

I was wondering how come you were so quiet on a post like that

[ShadowFist]

@parautenbach

I don’t want to edit before getting more opinions: I actually think videos should be avoided as much as possible. I’m not saying there’s no value in them, but there are very few good quality videos that will stand the test of time. I suppose it’s true for written content too, but that is easier to edit or comment on.

Had the same argument this weekend with someone who kept complaining that there wasn’t a video for whatever they were attempting.

Explained to them the unmaintainablity of video guides and pointed them to an excellent written step by step as well as a thread for troubleshooting.

Well, they still got it wrong & twisted the fact that the thread had 700 replies was because there was no video guide. That was my cue to walk away.

[nickrout]

Asleep at the wheel…

[boheme61]

I ones saw a respond from an OP, which maybe felt “insulted/misunderstood”
Can’t remember it wordly, or in which Topic, but was something like.

“Hey, Maybe you should think about the generation who grew up with (A click on a button, to install an App from Google Play” ) and then 2-3 click to create an Automation in that App) , And now with HA, I have to install maybe 3 different Apps( I think he mend, HA +Integrations +Cards(etc) and writing code, to accomplice the same, it’s complicated ! )

I do somehow “feel pity” for those generations, one of my last assignments was as “teacher” in a IT-Gymnasium ( 15 years ago )( Private such, where prime goal was to satisfy stockholders and ( public assigner/Goverment) ( So approval of students and easy (cheap and basic level) education materials, was one of their prime priorities, to fulfill the “requirements” for their “Business” ! )
In short, If a person had i.e Gaming experience and knows howto replace a Ram and/or a Graphic card ( handling a screwdriver )( And know howto install an App ) , they were considered having the competence as qualified ( and considered them self as such ) …

I know i do , from time to time forget ( or being mislead ) into a state where i assume, people have “done their homework” , or they give the impression that they know/done more than they actually do/have, so i assume they have done( in my opinion ) the most basic i.e troubleshooting steps.
Lately im trying to not “expect” that some people in fact haven’t done anything before they open a Topic, or they pick the first and best Post in a search, to post a question

[zombies.aaargh]

I don’t know about everyone else, but when I started out with HA I found the documents to be pretty difficult to use. They tend to run on the principle that you already know things like structure, syntax and naming conventions, and a lot of them aren’t self contained, meaning that they can tell you things like states and triggers, but not provide you with the information that you need to put them into practice.

Likewise, with existing threads, new users read them but don’t really understand how to put what is in them into practice in their specific circumstances. I’ve gone through a few troubleshooting threads and found that people are suggesting doing things, but aren’t giving any clues on how to do them. So it’s often easier and simpler to ask a new question and then get an answer that’s specific to you.

I’ve also found that quite a few threads contain multiple variations on the same code, someone asks something, someone puts in some code to do that thing, and someone else puts in a slightly improved version, or a version that does something slightly different. When you’re a new user that’s a little overwhelming, especially if the thread refers to something that’s been changed since the thread started.

I’ve come across several threads giving instructions that are no longer current, so the way of doing something is different, or where my screen no longer looks like the screenshots.

This is supposed to be a community resource, and I don’t think that it’s really reasonable to expect everyone to engage with it in the way that we want. If someone asks the same question as someone else just pass it by, leave it for someone else to answer if you don’t want to do it.

[petro]

No one here is expecting beginners to pick up this information instantly. This is a forum where you seek help from more experienced users. There’s also no rule for asking the same question. People here are just venting, they are allowed to vent. Just like you’re aloud to ask the same question that’s been asked a thousand times. As long as everyone is nice to each other, then all is well. The code of conduct explicitly informs users what is right or wrong on the forums. The FAQ is a loose guide meant to guide people into asking good questions so they receive good responses.

[Arh]

I think one of our (and I include us all here) bigger issues with starting out, is we just dive in and have a look get stuck then search for the answer on whatever medium we choose.

The best thing for all would be to read the docs about getting started which do go through the naming and concepts stuff, but how many of us have read them?

So how do we encourage people to read these docs before asking questions?

I for one over the last few years of using HA have learnt to start by reading the docs then progressing to other forms of information. I certainly did not start out that way.

The other issue is there are often many ways to solve a problem, all work and will solve the problem. How do we choose the correct answer for each user. We can’t.

The whole reason HA exists is to enable all smart home ecosystems to work together on a local level, this is always going to provide many ways to achieve the goal.

[aceindy]

Why are people asking the same question about motion sensor and light over and over again?

Can a nested automation trace the original trigger event?. He was trying to manually trigger automations that had dummy triggers because scripts were too hard or unstable or something, so he wrote multiple of these automatons because a single automation was unwieldy. And it took multiple NO’s for it to finally register.

Wow…almost missed it …that was a good laugh…

[zombies.aaargh]

Rather ironically, what we have in this case is the inverse, people posting the exact same answers over and over again when once would have done.

If somebody has said something, and it’s been acknowledge, repeating it is a little undignified.

In this case, the answer happened to be wrong. Scripts cannot use state calls to determine the trigger ID a parented automation. So anyone who comes across this question in the future will be mislead.

And in case anyone is wondering, in this particular instance, I simply had an action that needed to be called from several different places, so rather than copying and pasting the same code over and over again into different automations, I split it off into it’s own object and called it when needed, so that I would only need to change it in one place if an update was made.

For reasons that I don’t really understand, putting it as an automation rather than a script seems to have upset you.

[Stiltjack]

@Arh

The best thing for all would be to read the docs about getting started which do go through the naming and concepts stuff, but how many of us have read them?

True - and they have improved enormously over the last year or so.

There is a reasonably clear thread to follow for someone starting out. Maybe we should all do more to flag up the starting point, which is, I suppose:

Documentation

Although something a bit more eyecatching might be good, like the Green/Yellow start pages.

[zombies.aaargh]

@Arh

So how do we encourage people to read these docs before asking questions?

Speaking as someone who is new to HA, I think that a good place to start might be to separate out the technical documentation that details “what” the different components of HA can do, from the documents that explain to new users “how” to do things.

I remember trying to implement a specific notification feature that seemed to need about 5 lines of code according to the documentation, but the documentation telling me what the code was didn’t tell me where I needed to put it, and the documentation telling me where I needed to put it didn’t tell me how to edit that location, and the documentation telling me how to edit that location didn’t tell me how to actually open the editor.

In the end I had to find a youtube video where someone who spoke my native language did a walkthrough.

[petro]

@zombies.aaargh

Rather ironically, what we have in this case is the inverse, people posting the exact same answers over and over again when once would have done.

If somebody has said something, and it’s been acknowledge, repeating it is a little undignified.

With all due respect. You brought that on yourself. You were given an explicit answer multiple times and you refused (and are still refusing) to accept the answer. You even went as far as claiming that no one explicitly told you “it’s not possible to pass context” when multiple people did.

@zombies.aaargh

In this case, the answer happened to be wrong. Scripts cannot use state calls to determine the trigger ID a parented automation. So anyone who comes across this question in the future will be mislead.

Yes they can. This is automatically passed via context without the user doing anything. I explained this in my post. The proper way to have the ‘context chain’ work in automations and scripts is to have automations call scripts. Not use a automation.trigger to trigger a separate automation.

@zombies.aaargh

And in case anyone is wondering, in this particular instance, I simply had an action that needed to be called from several different places, so rather than copying and pasting the same code over and over again into different automations, I split it off into it’s own object and called it when needed, so that I would only need to change it in one place if an update was made.

That’s exactly what scripts are for.

@zombies.aaargh

For reasons that I don’t really understand, putting it as an automation rather than a script seems to have upset you.

It’s not this. It’s the fact that you’re belligerently denying that it will work. When in fact it does work. I have more scripts than I have automations simply doing what you’re trying to do. I’m trying to help you in the other thread, but you’re here arguing instead of fixing your problem.

---

Please, I am begging you. In the other thread, post a few automations that are triggering another automation. I will help you get exactly what you’re looking for without extra global variables, without any overhead, without any unstable issues, all using scripts instead of automation.trigger.

[zombies.aaargh]

With all due respect, I think that most of the documentation is still a couple of levels of complexity above what is required to encourage more people to read it.

*If you use Home Assistant Container, you can find `configuration.yaml` in the config folder that you mounted in your container.*

*If you use Home Assistant Operating System, you can find `configuration.yaml` in the `/config` folder of the installation.*

*If you use Home Assistant Core, you can find `configuration.yaml` in the config folder passed to the `hass` command (default is `~/.homeassistant`).*

For most new users this one section might as well be written in a foreign language. All of the information that you need IS included on other documents, but to fully understand this you need to have read and understood at least 5 other documents.

If reading through documentation is your thing then this is OK, but for your average new user it’s far easier to just go to the forum and ask someone why you keep getting a specific error message.

I’ve found myself trying to do things and finding that the documents presume that I’ve read other documents that I didn’t know existed.

[Arh]

I have to agree some of the documentation does assume you know everything about everything. But if you read from the start of the docs to end it will be quite straightforward. Just none of us are going to do that are we? So if we could find a way of creating documentation for a very complex system that covered every scenario in every page it may end up being a bit difficult to find you way around, some kind of compromise is needed. But what i don’t know.

[zombies.aaargh]

@petro

You were given an explicit answer multiple times and you refused (and are still refusing) to accept the answer.

The problem is that I did listen. I took in what people had said, and I explicitly said that this was something that I could do in the future but wasn’t in a place where I could do it right now.

I think that maybe you should ask yourself, whether raising that thread in this completely unrelated thread is in any way helpful to the OP, or to anyone in this thread.

If I were to post links about a thread that you raised in every other thread that you commented on, I think that maybe you’d consider this harassment.

Yes they can. This is automatically passed via context without the user doing anything . I explained this in my post. The proper way to have the ‘context chain’ work in automations and scripts is to have automations call scripts. Not use a automation.trigger to trigger a separate automation.

I’d turned the notifications off by then.

That’s exactly what scripts are for.

Which I didn’t know when I started, and which I’m apparently being stalked across multiple threads by people such as yourself for simply saying that changing this was on my radar but not a priority right now.

I said it multiple times, I’ve put a pin in it for later.

It’s the fact that you’re belligerently denying that it will work.

I’m really not sure where you’re getting that from. If you go back to the original thread I said multiple times that I wasn’t in a position to actually do it at the time.

I’m trying to help you in the other thread, but you’re here arguing instead of fixing your problem.

You’re posting links to thread where you were arguing with me on completely unrelated threads. This isn’t helping.

So, I’m asking you, please do not follow me around and post links to my old threads wherever I go. You could have posted this to the original thread, what purpose does posting it to a thread on documentation have other than to harass me.

[NathanCu (Nathan Curtis)]

@Arh

So how do we encourage people to read these docs before asking questions?

If you ever figure this out user experience folks everywhere will literally throw cash at you. Really. Let me know if you find the secret sauce… I like money.

[petro]

You’re mixing me up with another person. I have not linked anything here other than the code of conduct and the FAQ. I’ve been partaking in this thread before you joined and I had supplied an answer in your other thread. I’m not following you around. I just know the context behind your post because I replied in the other thread.

For what it’s worth, you’ve been the topic of conversation in the moderators chat. It seems you behave like this on a regular basis. This forum might not be the right place for you if you’re unwilling to take any feedback from other users without starting an argument.

We’ve gone through your history, this is a specific problem with the way you talk with people. If this was an isolated event, you wouldn’t have garnered the response from 3 separate moderators.

[zombies.aaargh]

@Arh

if you read from the start of the docs to end it will be quite straightforward. Just none of us are going to do that are we?

I actually tried this, but I found that there were too many branching paths. I’d start out reading up on one topic and then find that I needed to keep going backwards and forwards between other pages just to understand what was being said on the original page.

What might help would be to have little info boxes, or popups, that explained key words or phrases, which were repeated throughout the documentation even if it meant saying the exact same thing on multiple pages.

some kind of compromise is needed. But what i don’t know.

That’s not an easy question to answer, I feel that a lot of the documentation reads like glossary of features rather than an instruction manual. As you said, we can’t possibly have documents that cover all possible situations and their solutions, but some simpler explanations or language geared more towards the layman amight help.

For example

The easiest option to edit configuration.yaml is to use the Studio Code Server add-on. This add-on runs VS Code, which offers live syntax checking and auto-fill of various Home Assistant entities.

For 98% of the population, this says a lot yet very little, and this is one of the most crucial parts of this particular document for a new user because it tells them where there need to go to do the thing that they want to do.

It might be easier just to have a couple of pictures saying Click here, here and here to open.

I know that most people here have some kind of technical background or knowledge, but a lot of people in the world at large come form an environment where everything is a black box with an app for an interface. Simply having to access a text based editor is new and confusing, so having instructions that are geared for technical people will either make them quit or flee to the forum.

[tom_l]

@Arh

But if you read from the start of the docs to end it will be quite straightforward.

I wouldn’t go that far. But reading what I could understand and skipping the bits I couldn’t got me a long way in the beginning. Then it was just a lot of time spent looking through all the integrations to see what I could use.

[petro]

The glossary needs to be more prominent, pretty much everyone skips that. It should be the first pit stop when reading the documents.