Infrastructure, cabling & design

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Hi All;

This is my first post. I am moving into an old house which requires rewiring, re-plastering the walls so that i can replace all outlets & switches. Even I may consider re-piping the heating system as I need to upgrade the boiler.
I would like turn my house into a smart one gradually as needed and learn more about the choices.

What would be your advise for designing the infrastructure of the home for data cabling and electric wiring right at this renovation stage without violating UK regulations as well as keeping the work destruction in the house at minimum for future requirements.

Thanks for your helps.

Note to the moderators: I have searched the forum as advised and found few similar topics in several different categories but to my surprise there is no dedicated category and tags as “infrastructure/cabling/design” where all the new comers should start from like myself.

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As you found those other threads, it’d be useful to know what they didn’t help you with :wink: The advice in those is generic.

As for a building design topic, it’s not exactly a common question compared to all the other things people ask about.

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Hi;
I see its not an “on going” hot topic but new comers should start somewhere and this is where things get messy and hard to sort it out later on.
Actually I post this subject to other forums which are more into “building, pluming, heating and electrical works” but the problem was there were professionals in those areas but no idea or very few experience about home automation. Maybe here less professionals in those subject but probably lots of experiences as every body had in some stage.
Let me share part of my previous post with you to show you what help I needed at this stage:"

-I will put a central “digital consumer unit” under the stairs where all data cables connected to a patch panel and accommodate the controllers and other digital connection equipment.

  • I am considering a centralised/star design wiring for “main electricity supply consumer unit with RCB and MCBs” as well so all the individual light’s and sockets get its supply from this board instead of from a shared ring or circuit but not sure if this is the best practice and complies with all the regulations.
  • probably 3-4 cat5e or cat6 cables for each room. (this will be used for AV, network and switch/powersockets/sensors data connections)
  • a separate satellite cable (RG6?) for each room or “hdmi over cat6” will do the job?
  • 40mm flexi conduit between the patch board and rooms for adding cable in the future. ( i think I can run this under the floor boards)
    -as i do not know the exact place for the data/power points in each room at this stage, is it better to put a large “junction box” behind the doors to terminate all the cables and extra conduit?
  • Is it a good idea to use a Central Heating manifold" system for re-piping the the radiators so all the actuators for zone control will be on one manifold but not as separate TRVs on each radiator.

what else should I consider when re-wiring (low voltage data/control as well as main electricity) and designing the outlet as well as the central digital hub to make the things future “smart Home ready”

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Hi Raks
take a look at this site https://www.automatedhome.co.uk/content/wiring-guide.html
I was in your possition a few years ago and you are right most of the electricians plumbers etc are not up to speed on home automation. Of course you can go to companies like Loxone but I guess you want to DIY which is why you are here.
In the years since I did my build wireless has become much more practical but you still have to think about both the power any sensor or actuator will need and the data it sends or receives. With wifi control you will almost certainly need to wire for power as it is quite power hungry, Zwave and Zigbee are much lower power so may be battery powered.
I chose fully wired and if you are stripping and re-wiring you could do the same, but it takes a huge amount of planning. However you will always find cases where the planning didn’t quite work so you will likely end up with some wireless too. Plan for Hybrid now!
What ever you choose you must keep it safe, so get familiar with the wiring regulations in your country.
On your bullet points

  • List item Star wiring - good idea. Plan for dimming so if that needs an extra control wire make sure you put the right cable with the right rating in
  • cat 5e is great, but where are you going to put it, you need to consider where your sensors will be placed eg PIR for movement detection, likely to be high up, what about temperature, needs to be shoulder height, what about switches on doors, or windows - need cables to the frames. Put loads of able into your porch or front door area (lock, letter box sensor, door, bell, camera etc). Think about garden sprinkler control, CCTV, garage etc So the number is less important that the location at the planning phase.
  • satellite cable - not sure I would bother, I have it but don’t use it, everythign is streamed, cat5e @ 1Ghz is fine, get a reasonable switch as data rates go up
  • 40mm is quite big and difficult to fit within walls. Conduit needs to be straight, pulling around more than one corner is hard and likely to damage you cable. A vertical riser is really important so you can get cable between floors, again straight and I’d say more than 40mm. Consider fire protection when using big conduit, you don’t want it to be a route for smoke.
  • central manifold - yes a good idea as then powering/ controlling the actuators is all in one place. ( I didn’t!) Do make sure you insulate the pipe runs though otherwise your common run will get hot and potentially the target room will take longer to warm up. Obviously put in loads of insulation into the room ceilings, walls and floor - consider the impact on cable rating of running in insulated spaces . If heating rooms on occupancy, responsive heating is really important, so do think about electric (dead easy to control) or make sure your boiler has plenty of power (and is obviously highly efficient)

HTH
Jon
PS have a look at this for ideas of what could be automated so the wiring / planning to consider


and also part 2 from the same link
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hi,

I’d go for traditional wiring with sonoff or zwave switches. We’ve built 20 years ago and I did a bus for switches and star into the wiring cabinet where smart modules do all the logic controlling lights and some outlets. Obviously the manufacturer upgraded his system and now buttons are difficult to get hold of and expensive. I’ve bought spare control modules even in case some of them should die.

My electrician refused to wire for a domotics system in the attic and -guess what- by replacing old switches with zwave it is now integrated seamlessly in my HA setup. In fact it is what you see in chemical industry where it is marketed as digital twin where an iot like layer is put on top of the old process control system.

I’d even say your house will hold its value better if the next owner is able operate it and any electrician can maintain it.

I’m sure different people will have different opinions, hehe.

Jhh

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Wiring is now mixed bag. I one belived in CAT?? To each room and blah blah but now it not so necessary.

Many things are moving to wireless and now it possible to connect seperate audio using service to provide whole house audio affect.

I think wiring for wireless AP is needed and maybe wire for theatre but CAT?? hard wiring a TV in 2019 is getting to be redundant and cost is not beneficial.

Concentrate on proper electrical wiring and water plumbing. Speaker can be done but not so necessary to centralize this anymore. Smaller amps for single room/zone is best.

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Thank you very much for your reply Jon (and @jhhbe and @tmjpugh ) Those links and your advises are quite helpful to think and shape some of the options.

Yes, I would like to do as DIY and would like to learn more while searching and trying but I dont want my work and trials destroy my home or the usual daily comfort of the people in the house :slight_smile:
I am cautious on wireless solutions, I know they are getting better over the years but still i feel better to keep the essential connections wired unless there are industrial class but those are out of my budget and not much room to “play” with them. If a connection drops for some reason and the house have to lights, this will put me off quite quickly as I do not a system system just for the benefit of switching on/off the lights with my mobile when its available. So i have to find the right balance among reliability, performance, cost and usefulness.
Having said that, i have an open view on new wifi equipment. Definitely i will give it a try. I know they will work but will they be up for 99.99% or say 90%? that small failure percentage should’t stop the usual running of the house.

  • if I terminate each light switch’s and socket’s electric cables in a central control panel then I can manage most of the connections and controls in one place.
  • still we need extra cables for sensors and data, I will look for suitable places to terminate them in the rooms but probably one by the switch box and 1 by the ceiling light box is the minimum and few in “media outlet”
  • In my case its a bungalow so I am a bit more flexible on putting wires/conduits under the floor boards. I was thinking to put a large flex conduit just between the control panel and the rooms floor level. This will be an empty backup conduit for further cabling. I will check again if its practical or necessary. The idea was once the cable is in the room, find a way to run to the required place. But this is just for data cables as mains have restrictions with regulation about where you can run them.
  • Actually heating automation and energy efficiency seems more important then the “fancy” lighting automation. So I will go for manifold distribution system for radiators as well and search for an automation friendly efficient boiler system.
  • Sonoff is a popular and reasonable choice but they only do wifi version (maybe any mod for wired?) and not sure if I can relay on them for essential lighting. I will look for wired network alternatives?
  • I agree keeping the electric wiring “in regulation and standard” is important. I will discuss the star-wiring alternative with a qualified electrician before starting the job. Although central control panel is not common in domestic wiring, its a standard for commercial buildings so i hope not much maintaining and regulation problem once designed properly. The advantage of star-wiring is, you keep most of the “smart controls” in and around the control panel so if you are moving and decide not to leave any “smart control”, you can take all the controls out and electric wiring turns back into “manual switching”. Actually I have to search on this because I would like to keep the manual switching as a “fail-over system” (in case of a failure or maintenance, i prefer the lights are still functional with the manual wall switches in the rooms) but not sure about how I can implement it yet.
    -I am not too much into “distributed multimedia”. i prefer to keep (tv/video/music) in one or two rooms.
  • Security, heating and energy efficiency are the priorities for me. Actually I would like to take some time and write down some objectives and draft our expectations from home automation because sometimes the technology and availability push us to do or fancy the things which we won’t need or not practical at all in our daily life flow.

Please keep posting your ideas, opinions and experiences. Thx

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I would say you need to look at what is possible with micro PLC’s for a reasonable cost. Then consider a range of sensor options compatible with PLC’s which can communicate directly with HA via wifi while also being wired to PLC inputs for positive control and increased reliability if you require.

See here for PLC specific info.

I am working on more information to be added in my post over the next few weeks and will post here again as that information may be relevant to your needs.

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Hi Stephen,
I will look into PLCs which I do not have any experience with before but as I understand they are industrial class logic controllers with digital/analogue inputs/outputs and requires their own programming software and can be integrated with HA. I think better if I can find a reasonable second hand one on ebay to “play and learn”. before installing. Do you recommend any brand or model which might be more suitable for my purpose? Thanks.

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@Raks The type I use are Rievtech PLC’s and the specific model I use is ELC-22DC-DA-R-N but these have now been discontinued. There is a new release coming soon which is PR-26DC-DA-R-N but they are a little more expensive than ELC’s were. Spec’s are also quite a bit higher though.
I would highly recommend “play and learn”. before installing/purchasing.

Both PLC types mentioned above are ethernet type so need to be Cat 5 cabled.
There are wifi types to choose but they are less suited to your purpose I believe.

With cabling and as these are 24VDC models then this must be allowed for in your design as well.

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Conduit. That way wiring is irrelevant. You can run whatever cables you need in the future. Run conduits from all device/fixture boxes to a central box, one per room that is accessible after the walls are finished. Then a main conduit from that box down to where it needs to be accessible (IT closet, crawl space, etc.).

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This is what i am considering as I described in my previous posts. The cable runs inside the room requires more planning especially for sensors if you are planning to add as required and developed over the time. Some users have less concern on wiring as the wireless technology getting more reliable but in my opinion at least the essential switches and sensors should be wired.

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Ignore the wireless warriors. Wireless is great and my entire house is full of an assortment of esp8266, shelly, sonoff and xiaomi devices and these devices have been a god send for diy’ers, retrofit or rental properties but when it comes to new or large renovations there’s nothing like a central PLC with reliable hardwired relays and sensors.

I share your desire to have a forum thread dedicated to wired smart home options and there is a definite drought of shared knowledge in this area. I’m about to start a new build in NW London and been researching PLC smart home equipment for several months now. For my needs I think I have narrowed it down to either Loxone or Unipi or a combination of the two but that may change as it does several times. It’s an absolute minefield for newbies. I’ve been making things with arduinos and raspberry pi’s for a couple years now and there is such a vast amount of information and tutorials out there that it’s possible to teach yourself but this does not seem to be the case for PLC’s.

Both Loxone and Unipi have forums but it would be helpfull if we had something here on HA because ultimately the ease and strength of HA intergration is crucial for me as any future system will ultimately be automated and controlled by HA.

To summarise why I have shortlisted these two:

Loxone:

Seems simple enough for anyone tech savy to self install although Loxone customer service have been less helpful than I had hoped and keep referring me to their installation partners when I go to them with any technical queries. There is however a decent knowledge base, youtube clips and forums. A lot of it german unfortunately, luckily I speak german so happy to help if you need! :wink:

Their “tree” wiring topology seems to cut installation time and cost and their dimmer modules are simple “out of the box” solutions but I don’t like the idea that they only work with “tree” devices so you are limited to using their sensors and lights etc.

Also what if I change my mind down the line or want to change it in years to come, I’ll have to rewire…?

Unipi:

I’m very much going blind down this alley (limited online resources) but on first impression the Mervis software looks straight forward enough (I need to do a lot more research on this) but you have choices and can even use node-red if you want.

The units are cheapish and expansion is very cost effective and you can probably make it work with almost any devices out there, so no restrictions on sensors, switches and lights which is great.

Decent enough forum but no dedicated HA section, yet!

I would have thought it would be similar to modbus to integrate into HA but I’m slightly concerned with reported delays and problems that people on the forums are trying to resolve.

I am very tempted to just buy one of their smaller PLC’s and start wiring it up for testing…

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Hi @lessmann,
Thanks for sharing your experience as its very helpful. I already have less worries now but as you said, when I have opportunity, I prefer the things “wired” and “centralised” to keep the the maintenance, modifications and upgrades simple and flexible. (hopefully:)
Thanks to @wellsy I looked at PLC’s and he got a comprehensive post, if you haven’t check it yet, look at his replies in this treat.
Even I am tech savvy, I am not sure about choosing the right PLC yet. When it comes to “commercial building automation” solutions, there are few different communication standards as well as proprietary protocols. It seems commercial vendors prefer a “closed direct” or “through specialised partners” approach to offer their products to the larger buildings chains or companies which keeps the information very limited and priced on “whole contract based”. Hope, some users who have experiences in “commercial building automation” can shed a light in these unknown fields. I would like to know more about the PLCs and commercial solutions( I mean designed for all year around 24 hour reliability and mission critical), relay controls and more importantly wired sensors and controllers (presence, temperature, illumination, switches, actuators, valves etc) as well as their wireless support and HA integration,
If you have some posts, blogs and other sources please share here as well. Thanks :slight_smile:

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@Tinkerer with respect and as a responce to this:

I believe that may be because there is no dedicated area then people just go elsewhere to discuss such things…HA is missing out by not catering to (and encouraging) this type of discussion.

Giving people access to discussions about how to plan and implement their automated homes makes sense under the umbrella of HA being there to control and monitor it all don’t you think?

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@lessmann and @Raks So far I had a quick look at both these examples and what caught my eye was the UniPi Axon L205.

It has an impressive amount of onboard I/O (although a little light on for analog I feel?).

Digital inputs 36
Digital outputs 4
Relay outputs 28
Analog inputs 1
Analog outputs 1
RS485 serial interface 2
RS232 serial interface 1
1-Wire bus 1
Ethernet 1

Total of 70 I/O PLUS they have a range of expansions available

The software looks to be Function Block Diagram type

It also is compatible with Node-Red

And is compatible with other Open Source software but it does not list HA at this time.

All up this device looks to be fairly useful for the price of 619,00 €

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@lessmann and @Raks by comparison the Loxone Miniserver has the following onboard inputs and outputs:

SD-Card
LAN Connection
8x Digital Inputs 8VDC – 24VDC
4x Analog 0-10V Inputs
4x Analog 0-10V Outputs (max. 20mA)
KNX/EIB Connection
Power Supply 24VDC
Loxone Link
8x Digital Outputs 250V/5A

Total of 24 I/O
NOTE: No relay outputs onboard?

Total cost ÂŁ 485.65

They do mention :
The Miniserver lays the foundation for every installation and comes with our free software and mobile apps for convenient configuration and control.

The Miniserver can control:

Lighting
Heating
Security
Energy monitoring and management
and much more

For instance they have Dimmer Modules and Relay Modules, etc

They offer free software

They don’t seem to have any mention of compatibility to open source or HA etc but I may have missed that?

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Thanks Stephen

The Unipi definitely tops the list of bang for buck and its open source, my only worry at this stage is how to integrate it into HA.
Teunis Jan Teunis has done some work on converting the Unipi Evoke data to mqtt which looks promising and you have done some good work on integrating the xLogic Soft with the HA modbus hub. Thanks for sharing your project!

I am much better at copying someone else’s code than I am at writing my own so it’s reassuring that some of my HA pals have had a go at this. Both of these option look promising and I know Evoke is supported by Unipi but there is no mention of xLogic Soft. I really have to just get one of the PLC’s and start playing around with it so I can get familiar with it because once we start building I’ll have a million other things to figure out. The only problem is choosing which one.

As I’m an absolute PLC newbie I was hoping to pick your brain on a couple things…

I would need more I/O and relays than any single PLC offers so I was hoping to “daisy chain” two together to increase this. I know Unipi has the extension modules but they don’t offer as many AI/AO as the PLC’s do, or even Relays for that matter. Would this work or would I end up having to access the devices separately? Also what if I want an input on one device to trigger an output on another?

Secondly, RGB(red, green,blue) and SW(simple white) dimming. I assume this is where I need those AO’s 0-10v to manage a dimmer module like this Vellermann for RGB or this Anigmo for SW.

The Vellerman instruction manual has an easy to understand wiring diagram.

Regarding the Loxone, I think the mentioned DO’s in their documentation actually refers to relays. If you look at the pictures of the inside of the miniserver there are clearly 8 relays in there.

The Loxone systems biggest advantage is their “tree” topography. Instead of each device having to come back to the PLC, or miniserver in this case, there is a “tree” module which the devices can daisy chain onto. So instead of many data cables running to each different location you only have one running to the location and then they connect to each other, device to device. Great for installation of course, but you have to use one of their tree compatible devices and I worry about future proofing. What if I or the next owner doesn’t like Loxone and needs a star wired set up? But then the chances are that if you are going to rip it all out you will probably be doing a refurb and new wiring job anyway so maybe I’m over thinking this.

Also Loxone has some really nice “out of the box” devices. Their switch plates are excellent and light dimming seems to be really straight forward. Also there is a big enough forum community.

Maybe the solution is to split it up. Do the lights and switches with Loxone and all the blinds and heating etc with Unipi… There are so many options!

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Conduit is great of course, but you can’t, for example, run mains power and ethernet (or other low voltage signalling) in the same conduit.

The other problem of course is that you’ll never know how you’ll use your house until you live in it. You don’t know if you’ll need a fan to circulate the hot air from the fire, so you mightn’t know that you need cabling for it. You don’t know when some new device will come out that needs to be placed somewhere you never thought of - a few years ago who thought we’d need somewhere to plug in all those Alexa things and smart speakers, not to mention motion, humidity and temp sensors all over the house.

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It is a shame that home assistant isn’t in this list, given that domoticz and node red are there (among other OS projects)

https://www.unipi.technology/software_documentation/choosing-the-right-software-71

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