Australia - Electrically Certified Hardware

Using 230V (as required by Australian Standards) for the calculation, you get 15.65A on a 16A rated device… rather close but technically ok.

What you could do is get a contactor installed such that the Shelly switches the contactor and the contactor switches the load. This would however remove power monitoring capabilities unless you were to use another method for measuring other than the Shelly itself.

EDIT: the Aeotec below would be my choice, but I already use a lot of Z-Wave gear. If you don’t then you might not want to add Z-Wave for one device.

I think most people would recommend connecting something like that to a contactor, then use the smart switch to trigger the contactor. You could then monitor power draw on that circuit using a CT clamp or similar.

Or, if you were z-wave minded, you might look at something like the aeotec heavy duty switch

I don’t know if I quite get what a contactor is? Is it like a middleman in this case where I can have the shelly activate another “relay”, and then that relay activate the hot water system, but the secondary “relay” (the contactor), is rated to a much higher current so it’s not an issue?

Also unfortunately I haven’t gotten into Z-Wave, so maybe not for one device, but I’m sure there’s probably others out there?

Exactly. A contactor a basically a relay but with a higher switching capacity.

Yep, you could pair it with a Shelly power monitor that has a CT. You would likely want to do this anyway so the electrician can wire the contactor to be used for your ‘manual on’ switch position. This way you get power monitoring in both situations.

Is the installer talking about putting in a mechanical timer, or is the “timer” switch position meant to be for your smart switch setup? If it’s a mechanical timer, you may be able to ask if the mechanical timer can also be manually triggered by an external device (I’m pretty sure I’ve heard of such things). If so, you may be able to essentially use the mechanical timer as your contactor, triggered by a Shelly ProEM, and using the CT clamp to monitor power.

Just being nit-picky, but did you mean 250V? At 230V the current will be lower than rated, assuming it’s a purely resistive load, which I think is safe to assume for a heating element.

The Australia mains voltage is a compromise between 220 and 240V AC. It is specified as 230V +10% / -6% (253 V to 216 V). So the standard requires power consumption be tested at 230V.

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The installer just said “timer”, but I haven’t told them about the fact that I’ve got any smart stuff yet, so it’s probably some kind of mechanical timer?

Nope. As Tom said, 230 is to be used for calculations, which gives a higher current than if you calculate with 240 or 250. You got the maths wrong.

Well, the current will be higher at 250 than 230. You can’t break Ohm’s law. The power will also be higher at the higher voltage.

This would not be true for a constant power load such as an inverter heat pump, but for a resistive load I=V/R. Always has been, always will be.

No one is saying that Ohm’s law is broken.

We are saying that the standard specifies a particular voltage for power testing.

3600W @ 230V = 15.65A.

End of story. There is no 250V.

I guess as an electrician you need to know more about how to stay within the regulations than how things actually work, and that’s fair enough, that’s your job.

But the fact is that if you have a simple HWS heating element that draws 15.6A at 230V, it will draw about 17A at 250V (and be consuming 4.25kW.) And it’s not uncommon where I am to see 250V on the mains, in the middle of the day when everyone’s solar is cranking.

Maybe the regs don’t require you to take that into account, but that’s what happens.

Sure, but Dave already said the current was too close for comfort and the device was not suitable.

I think you need to understand that ohms law is not what we are using for the calculation.

To calculate current from a known stated (per the device) wattage, and a known / standardised voltage:
3600W / 230V = 15.652173913 Amps

Where is ohms law in the above calculation???

We don’t know the resistance of the element as the manufacturer has only stated the wattage at its design voltage, for which they do not use 250V.

The voltage actually used is whatever you get at the outlet, but for calculating, we use 230.

Sure, forcing a higher voltage across an element is going to cause more current to try and flow but if you have 250 at your outlet you have problems. Its within spec but seriously high and not normal unless you live on top of the nearest transformer.

I actually didn’t realise that had changed (in 2000) though it seems to have taken some time for the effect to ripple through. It might explain why Essential Energy apparently re-tapped my transformer a couple of months ago:

Oh, but we do! You can calculate it (using Ohms law.) If the nominal wattage is known at a nominal voltage then the resistance is given by R=V²/P, 14.7 ohms in this case.

Since the possible voltage ranges up to 253 (as per the spec quoted by Tom) the maximum current that will flow with an in-spec supply will be 17.2A.

This is relevant because the question was whether a 16A rated switch is suitable for this application and you quoted the nominal case, not the worst case. So the 16A rating is not “rather close but technically ok” - it’s actually less than the requirement.
.

sparkydave is right, do not use the Shelly relay alone for switching a higher power resistive heating element. It will not end well. Use a contactor rated for higher current switching capacity and many thousands of switching cycles. Then use a smart device for controlling it.

Even so, you need to ensure you are not switching such a load on and off too often.

You might want to consider an alternative, such as a Catch Power Relay.

The reason I stated what I did was because we are only TOLD the wattage, rather than calculating the resistance. I know we can calculate it but we don’t KNOW that it is correct unless we TEST it. Where this matters is in the fact we don’t KNOW for a fact what voltage the manufacturer has worked out that wattage from. It’s an educated guess.

If I can add to that. Always make sure when working with low voltages to connect the red wire to the positive. Alah — magic smoke…

@Opaquer

I hope you don’t mind me jumping in here. I apologize in advance for the length of this message.

I’d like to take a moment to share my perspective on hot water systems, as I believe understanding them can be quite important. While there may be different viewpoints, I think it’s beneficial to consider various perspectives before making a decision.

I prefer to stay positive and hope you find this information helpful.

Why Twin Elements? Twin elements are increasingly useful, especially with rising electricity costs. They don’t double the power but rather feature two separate heating elements in the hot water system, one at the top and one at the bottom.

Each element typically has its own power supply, and understanding why is crucial. The top element heats the water first, and only once it reaches a certain temperature does the bottom element activate. Consult with the manufacturer and your electrician for specific advice, and consider having your electrician install two separate power supplies for the hot water system. The top element heats about 50 litres, ensuring you never completely run out of hot water. The bottom element, powered by the second supply, heats the entire tank and can be used for more energy efficient operation, including smart options.

Switching Controlling

As @sparkydave recommended, it’s better to use a contactor rather than a Shelly device directly to switch the load, especially for something as important as hot water, where reliability is key. This approach is more robust, and I fully agree with his advice. You can use a Shelly to control the contactor… a Shelly 1 mini is sufficient since it only needs to handle the small load required to switch the contactor. If you’re planning to expand your system, consider a Shelly 3 or 4 Pro, which allows for additional controls like garden lighting.

For power consumption monitoring, as Dave suggested, consider using a different method, like a Shelly EM 50. Always consult with your electrician to ensure everything is set up correctly and safely.

It’s best to wire the top element to its own power supply, keeping it on 24/7, so you always have 50 litres of hot water available. The bottom element should be wired through a contactor controlled by a Shelly device, allowing you to turn it on and off as needed. There’s no need for an old school auto/manual/off switch…. you’ve got Home Assistant (HA) for that.

You might consider adding a manual push button in the switchboard. This button can control the contactor through the Shelly, acting as a boost if you can’t access HA or if WiFi is down…. It is a handy safeguard. Just wire it to the Shelly and configure it as a press button.

Below are 2 links as a reference.

Contactor

Boost Button

Smart Automation Home Assistant

To maximize savings, you can set up a timer to turn the bottom element on and off when electricity is cheapest. This simple step can save you a lot of money. I use my own blueprint for this: :timer_clock: Timer. Additionally, I use another blueprint, :stopwatch: Trigger - Run ON Timer, which boosts the hot water for one hour when needed.

The manual button in the switchboard, when pressed, turns the hot water on until you manually turn it off. However, since I use my timer daily to heat the water, the system resets each time the timer blueprint runs. This prevents the hot water from being accidentally left on, avoiding any surprise bills. This is why using a press button instead of a switch is crucial.

This is why twin elements are so beneficial. The top element ensures you always have 50 litres of hot water for basic needs, while the bottom element handles longer showers. The boost button is there if you run out of hot water or need a safeguard. While twin element systems do cost more… requiring an additional power supply and a more expensive unit…. I believe the benefits are worth the investment.

What Size Hot Water Storage?

To save money, it’s best to heat your water once a day when electricity is cheaper. Ensure you have enough hot water to meet your needs. For example, I opted for a 400-litre twin element system. The size you choose will depend on your household’s requirements

What Power Hot Water Storage?

Most people choose a 3.6 kW system, but I opted for 4.8 kW. Why? To prepare for future solar power integration. You can feed in power ranging from 0.1 amps to 20 amps. Think of it like an electric stove, where you use the available power. This consideration ties into how solar power can be utilized.

Solar Power

Think of your hot water system like a battery. Instead of selling excess solar power back to the grid, you can direct it to your hot water system first. Once the hot water system is sufficiently heated, you can sell any remaining power. Since hot water is a major cost in the home, using your existing hot water system for storage can be more economical than buying a separate battery.

I chose a 400-litre system with a 4.8 kW power rating to store and utilize maximum power. However, consult with your electrician to ensure compatibility with your solar setup, as your solar system might only produce 3.6 kW. In this case, a 3.6 kW system might be more appropriate.

For solar integration, consider solutions like the Fronius Ohmpilot, which directs excess power to the bottom element of your hot water system. The top element runs 24/7, while the bottom element benefits from excess solar energy, saving you money. Although I don’t have solar power yet, I’m preparing my system for future use.

Hope this helps you in some way.

Blacky :smiley:

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